Shoulder soreness/fatigue when low-bar squatting

[RedVelvetIsntAThing]

I recently had the privilege to train with Adam to correct my form on the main lifts, but we did not have enough time to iron out the squat. Apparently the problem I was experiencing was not a common one, so this is why I am making this topic right now to get as much input as possible.

I did look over the SS squat chapter / use the search function real quick to make sure I'm not asking a repeated question, but I apologize in advance if I missed something obvious.

The main problems I am encountering at the moment:

1. If I take too wide a grip, I lose back tightness and the bar slips down my back. This one is no surprise.

2. When I take a narrower grip, I can pin the bar "forward" into the base of the spines of my scapula and hold everything in a stable way, but then I find it difficult to keep the elbows up without getting quickly fatigued. As I do additional reps/sets, I get exhausted in the arms, lose upper back tightness, and the bar begins slipping.

3. If I "force" myself to work through that fatigue and maintain the tight bar at all costs, I experience a great deal of shoulder soreness after re-racking the bar.

4. A slightly separate problem, but I tend to squat too low below parallel and lose hamstring tightness. In terms of kinesthetic awareness or proprioception whatever one may call it, I find it difficult to force myself to "stop early" because it's not clear to me where to stop or when my hamstrings are about to lose tightness. What feels like "below parallel" to me is apparently way too low, but if I "stop early," it's usually too high (based on my self-recorded videos, at least). It's hard to find the middle ground.

My question:

Where should I go from here? Is my shoulder pain the result of lack of deltoid muscle? Lack of CNS adaptation? Do I just need to do the press more until I build some mass back there? Should I try to lean forward more to put more stress on the back and less on the shoulders, and to place less fatigue on the raised elbows? Are there any helpful cues / tips that might help me determine the stopping depth (other than practice, which is what I plan to do anyway)?

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

[Steve Hill]

1, 2, 3: So let me see if I have this straight. I'll summarize: You can hold the bar in the correct position, but you get tired doing so, and get sore afterwards when you try real hard. Sounds to me like you need to train. Weightlifting is not a comfortable activity. As long as you are not injuring yourself, if Adam showed you the correct place to put the bar, and it's not INJURING you, then you just need to train. Suck it up.

4: Not a slightly separate problem - a TOTALLY separate problem. Here's the deal - I've seen some folks advocate squatting down to a surface to provide the correct perception of depth, and I've seen that work; HOWEVER, in the end YOU STILL HAVE TO MAKE YOURSELF DO THIS. And the only way to get better is practice, practice, practice. In light of #1-3, PRACTICE. Did you think this was going to be easy?

Final advice: the next time you see an SSC to "work on all the main lifts" you should probably focus solely on the squat since it is THE MAIN LIFT.

[RedVelvetIsntAThing]

I appreciate the swift reply.

1, 2, 3: So let me see if I have this straight. I'll summarize: You can hold the bar in the correct position, but you get tired doing so, and get sore afterwards when you try real hard. Sounds to me like you need to train. Weightlifting is not a comfortable activity. As long as you are not injuring yourself, if Adam showed you the correct place to put the bar, and it's not INJURING you, then you just need to train. Suck it up.

I understand that weightlifting is not meant to be a comfortable activity. It's meant to be uncomfortable much of the time, and soreness (and injury) is to be expected -- as mentioned in the book. However, despite still being a beginner, I have injured myself a few times already, even when doing very basic lifts like barbell curls (with slow, controlled form), which I suspect is abnormal. I could feel questionable levels of discomfort rising up even then, but was told by others to "suck it up," so I did -- and I got injured.

So please do not take it as a sign of disrespect if I say that I am still very wary of "sucking it up" at this stage, because so far, each time my body has warned me and I've ignored it, I've gotten hurt. I cannot tell if this shoulder pain is a "bad" soreness or not. I want to be absolutely sure that I am not going to needlessly injure myself if I choose to ignore this soreness and move forward.

4: Not a slightly separate problem - a TOTALLY separate problem. Here's the deal - I've seen some folks advocate squatting down to a surface to provide the correct perception of depth, and I've seen that work; HOWEVER, in the end YOU STILL HAVE TO MAKE YOURSELF DO THIS. And the only way to get better is practice, practice, practice. In light of #1-3, PRACTICE. Did you think this was going to be easy?

No, I did not think it was going to be easy.

I was hoping there would be some kind of physical attribute / reaction / etc to focus on in order to verify correct depth. For example, if loss of hamstring tightness is a sign of being too low, then the lowest valid depth achievable is one in which that tightness is not lost. However, for whatever reason I can't seem to "feel" when I lose this tension, and I don't know if this is normal or not. If it is normal, then I'm fine with just practicing until I get it right (either way), but if there's something else that could help make the practicing more efficient, I'm all ears.

Final advice: the next time you see an SSC to "work on all the main lifts" you should probably focus solely on the squat since it is THE MAIN LIFT.

Agreed.

Thank you very much for your responses!

[Steve Hill]

The ability to "feel" things occuring as we move our bodies is called "proprioception."

Proprioception (/ˌproʊpri.ɵˈsɛpʃən/ PRO-pree-o-SEP-shən), from Latin proprius, meaning "one's own", "individual," and capio, capere, to take or grasp, is the sense of the relative position of neighbouring parts of the body and strength of effort being employed in movement.

Proprioception improves with training.

The problem with using something like a surface to squat to is twofold: first, it removes the stretch reflex at the bottom of a squat, because you will, at a minimum, stop when you touch the surface. It gets worse if you actively rest on the surface, because then things are relaxing. This is why box squats are an advanced exercise. Second problem is it becomes a crutch - you start training to the feeling of touching your ass to something instead of learning where your ass is in space through the various tools discussed in SS:BBT.

This is why we advocate seeing a coach. MORE THAN ONCE, if necessary.

[RedVelvetIsntAThing]

What are your thoughts on the shoulder pain? Would you characterize it as a typical pain that comes from lack of low-bar experience (or something else), or is it something to be concerned about?

[stef]

What are your thoughts on the shoulder pain? Would you characterize it as a typical pain that comes from lack of low-bar experience (or something else), or is it something to be concerned about?

You're either fucking something up or you have a structural problem. We can't see either from here.

[RedVelvetIsntAThing]

This is currently what I've been trying:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nk9VOaPLwHU

[Steve Hill]

I can't see where the bar is on your shouders from this angle.

[RedVelvetIsntAThing]

I'll try to make another video later on tonight when I get home. I had tried to follow the video guidelines from the sticky, but is there another angle that would be better? (perhaps same angle but higher up off the ground?)

[Steve Hill]

For purposes of seeing where the bar is sitting, yes, higher would be better. For example, if I were standing in the room with you, how high would my head be? So, head height and more from the rear (for this particular purpose). And even then, this is not ideal. This should have been something you discussed on-platform with your SSC.