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Thread: 2.0 vs Layback Press

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Wolf View Post
    FWIW, in theory I like the original strengthlifting criteria of layback being fine until a plumb line down from the most anterior aspect of the armpit gets behind the rear most part of the butt. But having judged at a strength meet and at over a dozen crossfit totals, this is very difficult to actually judge in real time while also looking at the knees, the feet, and the bar for up/downs. To really enforce it consistently you'd need a judge dedicated to just that, which adds another logistical requirement to something already challenging to pull off. The only real alternative I can see is requiring absolutely strict presses, which isn't a good option IMO.
    I totally feel you on this. I think I might have actually been one to suggest that the rule seemed arbitrary and difficult to judge up in Rip's forum. What you cite is definitely a large part of it being removed from the Olympic lifts (I'm certain you're fully aware of all that).

    As to the complications involved with the judging, I still think all meets should have instant replay. Webcams and a laptop are all you need. I really think it should be implemented at the national and international meets for sure, like they do with football, baseball, etc. Have a panel that reviews every lift and can overturn rulings without having to invoke the current panel system, which sucks. Not that any of that has anything to do with the strength lifting meets, I'm just rambling.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Wolf View Post
    ...or simply because they enjoy getting the most possible weight over their head without doing a push press...
    First, I got named dropped in the forums. I can sense the low, downward spiral into oblivion from here.

    Second, this right here actually speaks alot to why I have spent an unnecessary amount of time studying the olympic press. Because it is such a weird creature of a lift. They had one goal: avoid using the knees, or at least look like you did. And in exchange they found perhaps the most unique pattern of motions to be found in any barbell lift that I can think of. All because of a specific set of rules that started with the French being in love with both their own farts and how pretty their presses were. Or at least the latter of the two.

    As John D Fair proved, you can write an entire piece of literature on the ways they dodged something as simple as leg drive.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cody View Post
    I totally feel you on this. I think I might have actually been one to suggest that the rule seemed arbitrary and difficult to judge up in Rip's forum. What you cite is definitely a large part of it being removed from the Olympic lifts (I'm certain you're fully aware of all that). As to the complications involved with the judging, I still think all meets should have instant replay. Webcams and a laptop are all you need. I really think it should be implemented at the national and international meets for sure, like they do with football, baseball, etc. Have a panel that reviews every lift and can overturn rulings without having to invoke the current panel system, which sucks. Not that any of that has anything to do with the strength lifting meets, I'm just rambling.
    I agree it's arbitrary in the sense of the anatomical landmarks not having any inherent meaning - what makes that spot, specifically, the marker that defines too much layback? Nothing really, except that it allows some layback without getting into what most people would consider the real crazy territory, and is easily identifiable. Unlike the squat, were just below parallel is an important marker for both repeatability/consistency as well as actual training related reasons (utilization of muscle mass).

    Like you say, it is very hard to judge in real time, but instant replay would allow for that to be implemented. IR, however, comes with its own set of issues. You need the equipment as well as a dedicated panel who reviews the lift immediately so as a) not to delay the next attempt b) to have the judges' ruling confirmed or overturned immediately so that the lifter can put in their next attempt accordingly. An alternative would be to have the IR panel replace the judges, but I think this would require that the judges not give commands, because once you have a judge giving commands, you're ceding whatever objective reality is happening to the timing of that judge, which the lifter is going to listen to. If a judge gives the press command before a true pause or the down command before the DL has been definitively locked out, it's unfair to red light the lifter post facto for those things. So for this to work, you'd either need literally immediate review of each lift from the panel or for the IR panel to replace the judges and to get rid of commands. It's sticky.

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    Wolf, would you consider Chase's big press @ 315 to be excessive layback?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BGish1984 View Post
    Wolf, would you consider Chase's big press @ 315 to be excessive layback?

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    Right. I think it was a well executed press myself.

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    If you had asked a better question, based on my earlier responses in the thread, you might have received a better answer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Wolf View Post
    If you had asked a better question, based on my earlier responses in the thread, you might have received a better answer.
    I follow. Based on your earlier responses I assume what the answer is.

  9. #19
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    From what I understand, excessive layback was rarely flagged back in the Olympic day of pressing( although people assume it's one of the primary reasons that the lift was eliminated) and that the strengthlifting judges are pretty liberal on it as well. My conclusion, I'm going to keep lifting with some layback because that's how I like to press at the moment. Although I will never lift what Chase did, and I fall into that category of lifters who have no chance of winning a strengthlifting meet with my press( although I don't consider my personal press form to be "limbo"). Thanks for the great info Cody, Wolf. I'm going back over to the training board to further review the Limbo Pressing( or Sumo) thread. A lot of great info there as well.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Wolf View Post
    If you had asked a better question, based on my earlier responses in the thread, you might have received a better answer.
    Can I play too?

    Do you think a plumb line down from the most anterior aspect of Chase's armpit got behind the rear most part of his butt?

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