LEO Training

[johnmarshall]

Saw John Musser's video today and I think he (and Starting Strength) is very much onto something in as much as taking much of the magical thinking and busy work out of training Law Enforcement Personnel. I am also a fan of John Hackleman's approach to MMA where the 4 training components of a fight include striking (upright), wrestling/judo (transitions), Jiu Jitsu (ground), and conditioning. With Mark's video comments on strength as it pertains to conditioning made in May of this year I make these assumptions:

Presumed condition of new candidate: Novice Strength Level, Over-fat for level of conditioning, and no experience in defensive tactics

Starting Strength Phase 1 and Phase 2 strength programs (to include work towards chin-ups) as a foundation over a 6 week academy giving candidates tangible gains in their abilities

1 In the coaches opinions would the conditioning of Jiu Jitsu sparring practice be enough endurance training?
2 If so where would it do the least harm in trying to keep improvements in strength gains?
3 Defensive tactics training requires a modest level of flexibility that I'm sure you've addressed with wrestlers in your program how do your coaches view this?

JM

[Michael Wolf]

1. Enough for what?
2. If the candidates are doing the program on Mon/Wed/Fri, then do that on Saturday.
3. If someone can't achieve a position they need to achieve for an activity they need to do, then stretch the things that need to be stretched to achieve that level of flexibility. Just don't do the stretching prior to strength sessions.

[Mark E. Hurling]

Michael, I hope you don't object to my insertion of some thoughts and advice on this subject.

1. Endurance:
Seldom an issue in LE. Fights are over in under a minute and mostly in 20-30 seconds. Foot pursuits end before the guy you are chasing has gone 400 yards. They trip, puke, or run into something and you pounce them then. Also, you get more cardio conditioning value from lifting than you might think. Get a heart rate monitor or fitbit of some sort and you will be surprised at the average heart rates you get during the course of a lifting session. Even with 3-5 minutes of rest between sets. The MA you practice will add to this as well.

2. Lifting:
Not really as qualified as Michael to speak to this, other than to say that even in my early 60's I managed to juggle lifting and MA skills training and teaching to three times a week each. I had to modulate that further to 2-3 times a week for both as I got to my mid 60's. You are almost certainly young enough to balance this mix out and recover better.

3. Flexibility:
Never an issue in subduing someone. Reading the potential attacker's intent, processing and reaction time to the attack, and countering techniques are far more important.

My perspective on this is as an old cop from the 70's when the rules of engagement were far less strict than now. Albeit not for the better perhaps, but that's a political argument that is better not pursued in more depth. You have to swim in the river you are in now. I practiced multiple MA's from age 15 on and off for my chosen profession and continue to practice and teach stand up (self defense) Jujitsu creeping up on age 67.

MMA is not LE. You will seldom be matched with someone of equal skills, the same strength, a nice clean and well lighted venue with no broken glass and concrete on the surface, a referee, and 3-5 minute rounds.

Striking as a first resort is dicey these days. Stand up blocking, deflections, joint controls, and locks are the first line of self defense, control, and subduing a resisting offender. Which is not to say they are irrelevant. Just not the first thing.

Going to and remaining on the ground is really bad shit. You need to learn to resist being taken down, how to fall safely, and how to repel an attack and get up again ASAP. Letting an attacker get you down and play his game on the ground is a good way to get shanked by him and/or stomped by his friends.

There's a little more, but out of deference to Michael, assuming he deems this worthwhile to moderate through, I will cease and desist.

[johnmarshall]

First thanks for reply

I Misspoke 36-week Academy

1. 400m time standard mentioned in the Ranger Up interview you guys gave. Moreover preparation for rare but the possible necessity of a maximal exertion MMA type fight once assigned outside of the academy.

[Michael Wolf]

As Hurling alluded to, you can certainly strength train and get stronger, especially young men, when doing other things like MA or grappling multiple times per week. But the by-the-book SSLP won't last long under such conditions. If you have 36 weeks AND control over the deal, I'd try to do the LP as written with MA or grappling done once per week, on the day after the last workout of the week, so there's still a day to rest before the next lift. Most lifters will finish their LP well before the 36 weeks are up, at which point a slower progressing or even maintenance program can be implemented, with increases in MA and grappling instruction and practice, as well as multiple times per week conditioning, if such things are required to pass a test or deemed necessary for the requirements of the job.

[johnmarshall]

Thanks you guys for all the input.

I'm going for a bit of a paradigm shift as I've attended two police academies and over the years have been a sworn member of two municipal departments, one county, and now a federal agency. I've been exposed to Pressure Point Control Tactics (PPCT), The Koga System, I attended a Gracie GST course, and have been taught a pot-pouri of officially sanctioned things. I very much enjoy the rational thinking process I've seen here and will be continuing to try and interview strongly opinioned experts who train athletes. If you have ideas about who I should interview to revisit the idea of how we train LEO's specifically for longevity and survival. Please make suggestions.

[Mark E. Hurling]

If Michael will continue to indulge me here:

My apologies for what turned into a patronizing initial post. I didn't know you were already an experienced cop.

So the Koga System is still around? Amazing. I had his book written in the 60's but never had the opportunity to train with him. I lived in the Midwest and couldn't afford to get out to LA where he did his thing. Between that and the other training you mentioned, you seem pretty well versed and prepared for your endeavors. But I do have some suggestions on persons and resources you may or may not be aware of.

Rory Miller. His books are full of sound advice and such. He was/is a corrections officer but bad guys are bad guys in the street or in the clink. He offers training of both first responders and for Joe Citizen.

Mark Hatmaker. He's also an MMA type, but his book No Second Chance is packed with good advice that transcends application for just Joe Citizen and can be useful for cops as well.

John Helms: LAPD-SWAT-SIS-Retired. He did conduct firearms as well as defensive tactics training. I know him and was trained by him in the dojo we were both part of. Good guy.

[Michael Wolf]

If Michael will continue to indulge me here:

I am amazed by your ability to stay on topic here, MEH. Or, should I ask: who is this and what have you done with the Mark Hurling I've bantered with on these forums the past 7+ years???

[Mark E. Hurling]

I am amazed by your ability to stay on topic here, MEH. Or, should I ask: who is this and what have you done with the Mark Hurling I've bantered with on these forums the past 7+ years???

Heh.

A person is often someone of several parts. I like to josh around and juke and jive on an entire host of many things. I still do, depending on the matter.

This topic is not one of them. Once upon a time you had to make things up as you went along as a cop and try to find what (possibly good) advice you could if you wanted to do your job better. This particular matter is a singular source of passion with me, having done some not so good things while trying to bring order out of chaos when attempting to do my sworn duty.

People got hurt. More than they should have because I did not have better ways of stopping them from doing their own stupid or bad things.

I can't change the harm I did then or the people I damaged. But I CAN provide some signposts for those who came after me in an important chosen profession.

Thanks, Mike. I appreciate your patience with me.

[ChessGuy]

Was a 62 yo C.O. in a maximum security prison. I belive strength is paramount. Was able to body slam an attacker because I was deadlifting. The fancy stuff can come later.