I'm helping my dad who's 52 and have a bad back - opinions/experience appreciated!

[Bergstedt]

Too long, didn't read:
Coaching my dad. He's 52, have a bad back (herniated discs and history of lumbagos), is a novice, is over-weight. 1. Can he do starting strength, with all basic barbell movements? 2. What should he think about, to not hurt his back? 3. How should he eat to progress the weights in the gym but regress his own weight on the scale? See more info below.

The long story:
Hey all.

I'm a fairly versed lifter myself, at least if I count all the years I've been doing the basic barbell excercises. My technique is also good enough to allow me to workout hard without injuries. So I'm at least very interested in the subject of training, programming, technique, etc., even if I don't have too much experience of coaching, except for helping my girlfriend when we go to the gym together.

Last year my dad took up gym training - or, to correctly use Rip's words - gym excercise.

Some stats about my dad:
- Age: 52,

- Height: 6'3",

- Weight: 230-235 lbs (typical untrained guy in his prime year-lbs, so not too much lean mass).

History: he worked in construction until his back broke around 20 years ago. Have one or two herniated discs, as well as a history of frequent lumbagos when trying to do new things in his usual manner, i.e. going all in and putting major stress on his body without any thought on recovery or adaptation.

Goals:
- Be consistent, and go to the gym 2 or 3 days a week,

- Healthier in general, stronger and healthier body, healthier back,

- Be able to sit around (he's a desk jockey now) all day, without feeling sore/pain,

- Lose weight.

SS for an older guy with a sensitive back?
He has been going to the gym three days a week for a year, and now he wants to take his current program (all machines) up a notch, and has asked me to make him a program. I think that his back could benefit from deadlifting and squatting, if he starts deadlifting with the bar + 10 lbs worth of bumper plates, and start squatting the empty bar. I'm thinking about progressing slowly, with 5 lbs per week in the beginning, and then maybe adjust the rate of progression if necessary. This is why I'm thinking about setting up an Starting Strength program for him.

He says that he feels a lot healthier after going to the gym for a year, and he wants to try these excercises, since I always do them. But he's afraid his back will give him trouble.

Questions:
1. That's why I'm posting here on his behalf: have any of you guys any experience of deadlifting and squatting with a back that might not be what it should be?

2. Would you advice against me even introducing him to these movements?

3. Or is it the way to go, if I coach him thoroughly and stress the importance of technique, and stress the importance of taking it slow, and programming for the long term gains?

4. If he wants to lose weight as well as become stronger: how should he eat? Lots of food to be able to recover properly, or will his extra weight accomodate enough energy to be able to recover sufficiently, without a caloric surplus?

Any other thoughts or advice is also greatly appreciated!

[Kyle Schuant]

People with this history I don't start with vanilla Starting Strength, but progress as follows. I assume a normally-equipped gym with machines, dumbbells 5-25kg in 2.5kg increments, 20kg barbell and iron plates (no bumpers or plates under 1.25kg) a bench press, and a power rack with safeties.

The keys here are building good movement skills and confidence. The person generally injured themselves from sloppy movement, either sitting at a desk for years, or lurching something around in the garden, etc. Good movement is the foundation of strength, they'll do better in terms of keeping their back healthy with a sharp 40kg squat than a sloppy 140kg squat.

Confidence is important because the person who's been injured, helpless and in pain doesn't want to go there again, and they become hyperaware of twinges and aches.

For these reasons, you start them absurdly easy and build up slowly. Microloading is good, but in a typical gym you can't do it, so you build reps instead. For example, if they bench 40kg 5x3, then next week 40kg 6x3, and so on up to 40kg 10x3, six weeks have gone by and now they will certainly be able to bench 42.5kg 5x3. Barbell squats and deadlift can build from 3 to 5 reps before adding weight, everything else from 5 to 10. In most cases 2-3 warmup sets and 3 work sets are plenty.

The exercises are done for roughly six weeks each

• Goblet squats ---> double dumbbell front squats --> barbell front squats ---> barbell low-bar back squats
• Plank ---> dumbbell bench press ---> barbell bench press ---> barbell overhead press (keeping the bench press in).
• Seated cable row alternating with lat pulldown, these two are kept in though cycles, in each new cycle drop the weight back 4 weeks and build up again, eg 60 to 72.5kg in one cycle, 62.5 to 75kg in the next, etc.
• Rack pulls from just below knee working up to 75kg ---> deadlifts starting at 60kg. After this keep the deadlifts in, but do them every second session, and as before drop back weights 4 weeks in each new cycle and build up.
• Farmer's walks --> rack carry ---> after this alternate farmer's walks, rack carries, and the deadlifts, ie DL/FW/DL/RC etc.

Really there is a lot of judgment involved in this. For example, if the person carries a lot of fat on their trunk I omit the planks, as the weight will drag on their lower back causing pain, and their belly or breasts brushing against the ground will embarrass them - see confidence mentioned above.

Nonetheless, this gives a sketch of what I do with people with significant lower back issues. The outcomes are generally good. What the person has to understand is that they will always be this way - the dodgy back is like diabetes or something, you never get rid of it, you just manage it. Strength training will not resolve these issues, it will only mitigate them, reducing the frequency and severity of flareups. These flareups will affect the person's confidence, most will quit and never get through the whole programme. But here is a 66yo woman who did, 2.5yr after two herniated discs she has squatted 75kg, benched 30kg, and deadlifted 105kg.

[Bergstedt]

People with this history I don't start with vanilla Starting Strength, but progress as follows. I assume a normally-equipped gym with machines, dumbbells 5-25kg in 2.5kg increments, 20kg barbell and iron plates (no bumpers or plates under 1.25kg) a bench press, and a power rack with safeties.

The keys here are building good movement skills and confidence. The person generally injured themselves from sloppy movement, either sitting at a desk for years, or lurching something around in the garden, etc. Good movement is the foundation of strength, they'll do better in terms of keeping their back healthy with a sharp 40kg squat than a sloppy 140kg squat.

Confidence is important because the person who's been injured, helpless and in pain doesn't want to go there again, and they become hyperaware of twinges and aches.

For these reasons, you start them absurdly easy and build up slowly. Microloading is good, but in a typical gym you can't do it, so you build reps instead. For example, if they bench 40kg 5x3, then next week 40kg 6x3, and so on up to 40kg 10x3, six weeks have gone by and now they will certainly be able to bench 42.5kg 5x3. Barbell squats and deadlift can build from 3 to 5 reps before adding weight, everything else from 5 to 10. In most cases 2-3 warmup sets and 3 work sets are plenty.

The exercises are done for roughly six weeks each

• Goblet squats ---> double dumbbell front squats --> barbell front squats ---> barbell low-bar back squats
• Plank ---> dumbbell bench press ---> barbell bench press ---> barbell overhead press (keeping the bench press in).
• Seated cable row alternating with lat pulldown, these two are kept in though cycles, in each new cycle drop the weight back 4 weeks and build up again, eg 60 to 72.5kg in one cycle, 62.5 to 75kg in the next, etc.
• Rack pulls from just below knee working up to 75kg ---> deadlifts starting at 60kg. After this keep the deadlifts in, but do them every second session, and as before drop back weights 4 weeks in each new cycle and build up.
• Farmer's walks --> rack carry ---> after this alternate farmer's walks, rack carries, and the deadlifts, ie DL/FW/DL/RC etc.

Really there is a lot of judgment involved in this. For example, if the person carries a lot of fat on their trunk I omit the planks, as the weight will drag on their lower back causing pain, and their belly or breasts brushing against the ground will embarrass them - see confidence mentioned above.

Nonetheless, this gives a sketch of what I do with people with significant lower back issues. The outcomes are generally good. What the person has to understand is that they will always be this way - the dodgy back is like diabetes or something, you never get rid of it, you just manage it. Strength training will not resolve these issues, it will only mitigate them, reducing the frequency and severity of flareups. These flareups will affect the person's confidence, most will quit and never get through the whole programme. But here is a 66yo woman who did, 2.5yr after two herniated discs she has squatted 75kg, benched 30kg, and deadlifted 105kg.

Wow. Thank you, Kyle! This means a lot. And you made excellent points, both about confidence and about the progression. I also hadn't thought about the different excercises.

Just to clarify: are all the excercises in each bulletpoint's "section" (the ones between each level of arrows, i.e. the first section being goblet squats, plank, seated cable row/lat pulldown, rack pulls, and Farmer's) supposed to constitute one group of workouts, that I can spread out on two to three workouts a week for six weeks, and then advance to the next group of workouts, and therefore next section of excercises?

Edit: Or are all the excercises in each section supposed to be grouped into one workout - that therefore has 5 excercises - that are going to be performed 2-3 times a week for six weeks, before advancing to the next section?

Thank you!

[Kyle Schuant]

The latter. So the person starts with goblet squats, planks, cable rows and lat pulldowns, rack pulls and farmer's walks. Does that for several weeks, then the second list exercise, etc.

If they are really unconfident or have terrible movement you could have a dumbbell hip hinge before the rack pull. Dan John's "wall drill" is to stand one of your feet's length from the wall, slight bend in the knee, stick your butt back and chin forward until your hamstrings start screaming at you, "chest up!" then stand up, and so on.

The idea is to pattern the squat etc movements while not putting a big load through them. Flareups will happen with big loads, and with sloppy movement in the lower back. So squats begin with goblet squats, nobody's using huge weights with those, so even if they round their lower backs a bit at the bottom most likely nothing horrible will happen. Then the double dumbbells held up, this teaches them to keep their trunk and shoulders tight while squatting. Then the front squat lets you start loading them up, but it's a less load than back squats would be, and it's easier for them to keep their back tight - lots of people will good morning a back squat, which isn't going to help the person with lower back injury. And once they're strong and confident with that, the low-bar back squat comes in. And of course by that time all those rows and deadlifts will have strengthened their upper back and this will help them hold the bar there, etc.

Goblet squats and farmer's walks are probably all most people need in terms of health and everyday life, we just do all the other barbell stuff to be better than that; health is more than the absence of sickness or injury, there are degrees of it. We can aim higher than "not awful".

[Bergstedt]

The latter. So the person starts with goblet squats, planks, cable rows and lat pulldowns, rack pulls and farmer's walks. Does that for several weeks, then the second list exercise, etc.

If they are really unconfident or have terrible movement you could have a dumbbell hip hinge before the rack pull. Dan John's "wall drill" is to stand one of your feet's length from the wall, slight bend in the knee, stick your butt back and chin forward until your hamstrings start screaming at you, "chest up!" then stand up, and so on.

The idea is to pattern the squat etc movements while not putting a big load through them. Flareups will happen with big loads, and with sloppy movement in the lower back. So squats begin with goblet squats, nobody's using huge weights with those, so even if they round their lower backs a bit at the bottom most likely nothing horrible will happen. Then the double dumbbells held up, this teaches them to keep their trunk and shoulders tight while squatting. Then the front squat lets you start loading them up, but it's a less load than back squats would be, and it's easier for them to keep their back tight - lots of people will good morning a back squat, which isn't going to help the person with lower back injury. And once they're strong and confident with that, the low-bar back squat comes in. And of course by that time all those rows and deadlifts will have strengthened their upper back and this will help them hold the bar there, etc.

Goblet squats and farmer's walks are probably all most people need in terms of health and everyday life, we just do all the other barbell stuff to be better than that; health is more than the absence of sickness or injury, there are degrees of it. We can aim higher than "not awful".

Ok, good.

I thought about introducing the squatting movement using just that excercise. I just didn't know it had a "name".

This is all really interesting, and a lot more well thought through than when I started going to the gym myself. It's interesting! And yes, I think that healthier than "not awful" is a very good starting point.

Thank you for your very insightful input.

Do you have an idea of how to do with nutrition? Just let him eat as normal, or put him on a caloric surplus/deficit? He could use some weight loss, so I'm thinking that a caloric deficit should be good in the beginning of his transition to this program, since the training shouldn't be so heavy as to demand lots of energy. If he feels the need to up the calories later on, we should be able to adjust for that then - should it be the case.

[Kyle Schuant]

Your dad is not going to follow his son's dietary advice, sorry. But let's speak generally.

More protein. At 6'3" his 230lbs would be a fine bodyweight for a muscular guy, and light for a really strong guy. So if he keeps his overall energy intake the same but adds some meat, fish, eggs and dairy, that extra protein will provide the materials for more muscle and bone, while his extra bodyfat gets burned up to provide the energy for the workouts and the muscle growth. His weight will stay the same, but his waist get smaller and his chest etc bigger. Which is what most of us guys want.

[Bergstedt]

Your dad is not going to follow his son's dietary advice, sorry. But let's speak generally.

More protein. At 6'3" his 230lbs would be a fine bodyweight for a muscular guy, and light for a really strong guy. So if he keeps his overall energy intake the same but adds some meat, fish, eggs and dairy, that extra protein will provide the materials for more muscle and bone, while his extra bodyfat gets burned up to provide the energy for the workouts and the muscle growth. His weight will stay the same, but his waist get smaller and his chest etc bigger. Which is what most of us guys want.

Haha. That might be true. He has asked, though, so I thought that I at least should prepare an answer. But ok, that sounds like a simple enough plan for him to actually follow.

[sbhikes]

I watched this video the other day about back pain. It was really interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LJjmo7eFqQ

[Bergstedt]

I watched this video the other day about back pain. It was really interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LJjmo7eFqQ

Thank you. I'll take a look.

[Bergstedt]

Excellent posts about programming for my dad

I am reading The Barbell Prescription at the moment and remembered that one of my first forages into this amazing forum was through this thread. I just re-read Kyle's answers and is still amazed with the level of knowledge of many posters here, as well am very grateful for you guys providing the rest of us with all of this knowledge for free.

I am sorry to report that my dad hurt his right knee doing some silly stuff outside the gym last spring, which made him scared of further pain and quit training. He had at the time been at it for about 8 months and gotten his squats to 105 kg*5*3 and deadlifts to 110 kg*5, which was the strongest and fittest he'd ever been his whole 54 year old life.

But I bought him a copy of TBBP for Christmas and he came a couple of days ago and told me that he might be interested in trying the gym again. So I'm doing all the studying I can now, and just wanted to give another shout-out to Kyle and all the others sharing their wisdom here on the boards.