Advice welcome here

[chrisd]

I totally agree but NONE of this has anything to w/the age of the lifter. It all has to do w/the lifter's ability or lack of it. That was the only point I was trying to make.

That is an interesting point. It is also wronger than Wrongy MacWrongface mayor of Wrongtown in Wrongshire, but interesting nonetheless. Injuries sustained over the age of fifty hurt more and heal less quickly. Ligaments thicken and become less elastic, tendons become inflamed more easily. Tissues in general lose their elasticity. Specifically, a protein called 'elastin' tends to bind together and does not move the way it did, the skin on the back of your hand is a prime example of this.

If you can guarantee catching every clean perfectly then fine, you jus have to deal with the equivalent of jumping off a plyo box of increasing height. If you catch it wrong then you have the chance of the bar impacting on the clavicles, painful for a week or so, the larynx, potential knock out or twisting the less than elastic elbows and tearing ligaments.

How much ability do you think a new lifter has ? Take a look at the power clean form checks on the coaches' forum. Some of them are an accident waiting to happen and the older lifters tend to be worse. How much worse will the lifter perform on the fifth set of three ? those things are tiring. Bad technique can injure you on the slow lifts, but a failed lift is really a non event, the press and deadlift don't go up and the squat and bench can be parked on the rails. A failed clean is a loaded seven foot bar of steel that is going to land on your upper body while you are landing from a jump.

It's not even that beneficial. It brings the traps up nicely, but the speed and power can be developed in safer ways, like kettlebell juggling.

[Gene61]

Exactly when did Rip "come out against using [power cleans] for those of us over 50?" A link would be helpful. I tried doing a Google search for such an assertion but couldn't find one.

I'm aware that he has suggested that the power clean may not be as "useful" or beneficial for "seniors" because of certain physical limitations that come w/age but have not seen any suggestion that NO one over 50 should even try them. The following is what I've read. It comes from Page 181 in "Starting Strength:"

"Older people with old-people's elbows, shoulders and wrists may elect not to perform [power cleans] at all, as may very young trainees, people with poor athletic ability, older women, or people with osteoporosis, chronic knees tendinitis or other problems that make the power clean more trouble than it is productive. But for most other people and all athletes, the power clean is the best way to increase the ability to explode -- to display power -- where this ability needs to be developed."

Now, if you decided to drop power cleans from your routine because you just don't like them or can't do them, that's fine. That's your right and privilege. But, saying that Rip "came out against using the exercise for those of us over 50" is (as far as I know) simply false. The quote in his books allows for ANYONE of ANY AGE to do power cleans IF s/he has the physical ability to do them and IF s/he needs or wants to develop the "power" that comes from doing the lift.

OK. So he just advised caution. Still Rip, ripped into Mark E. Hurling for still doing them at his (our) age. (Sorry I don't have the link.) Unlike Mark, I never lifted at all until I was 61, so I don't have a life time of built up material in the relevant tendons. As I said, I found them fun, but haven't missed them since I stopped.

[Mark E. Hurling]

As I recall, he didn't give me any grief about doing them. But all the cautionary notes here from others are well taken. I'm not doing them currently. Not because they damaged me, but I was so lower back heavy on my routines last year I dropped them to allow for better recovery of my lower back.

I suck at them, but they are fun to do. If you like them, do them. Just recognize your potential limitations.

[ChessGuy]

I agree. Ditch the power cleans. So many say it's beneficial for an older guy. No one mentions the real benefits, if any.

Read Rip's books. FTFP. Read the books and learn.

The press is not a substitute for the power clean. It's an awesome exercise in itself and should be done when possible.

One can do pulldowns and/or pullups also.

[skid]

Do the cleans if it feels good. I think they're pretty awesome to do. Don't let that pussy Shug scare you off just cause he can't handle it

[Ericreichelt81]

Let me preface by saying that I completely understand why someone would NOT want to power cleans because of a physical handicap or limitation. No one should do any lift that will cause or exacerbate an injury. And maybe this isn't the right place to argue the issue and I don't want to come off as an advocate for power cleans for their sake alone but I find it really condescending to the "elderly" to say that power cleans are NOT necessary for people of their age.

Personally, I am 65 and I just started doing power cleans. I'm still a novice in LP and at low weights (75# and going up) but I like doing PCs and I do not feel that they are "unnecessary" to my training. They provide a different kind of lift that can aid in my overall strength/athletic development and assist in improving my strength in doing other lifts as well.

I looked around the Net for reasons why it's good to do power cleans and found this old SS thread here: http://startingstrength.com/resource...er-cleans.html. Lots of people say they don't do them because they don't "like" them or can't to them well. On the other hand, there are a lot of other comments that provide ALL KINDS of reasons why power cleans are useful to do; not just for sports and football training.

I'm not saying that everyone "should" or must do power cleans to gain strength. My only objection to the comments in this thread suggesting that they are "unnecessary" for the elderly to do because of their age. I think that is pure BS. Anyone who is physically able to do them w/o injury can benefit by them regardless of their age.

If someone doesn't WANT to do power cleans for whatever reason, fine, but please don't go around "advising" or suggesting to the elderly that they shouldn't do them at their age, simply because they are of a certain age. End of rant.

Generally, it makes sense to believe that "older" people are more likely to get hurt doing power (or dynamic) lifting exercises because, as they get older, they become more susceptible to injury and that there potentially is much greater risk, than reward, that comes from doing power cleans. I don't know if there is any actual data to prove it, but I don't dispute the general premise.

However, it's a far cry from saying that the benefits of doing power cleans may not justify the risks for a specific person, given his/her specific physical/medical condition, than baldly saying that doing power cleans is UNNECESSARY for EVERYONE over the age of 55 or whatever.

We are all different. There are some older men who can out lift much younger men because of their genetics and/or training. Just because you're 55, 60, 65 or whatever doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't do power cleans. Each person needs to decide for him/herself whether s/he is able to do the exercise w/o undue risk of injury and whether s/he can benefit by it if s/he does.

However, anyone (coach or otherwise) who arbitrarily tells an "elderly" person he shouldn't or needn't do power cleans because s/he "too old" to do them is doing that person a disservice and is guilty of "age discrimination." That person may very well be able to do the exercise and benefit by it and that person should be allowed to determine if it's something s/he wants/needs to do or not.

That's all I'm saying.

I think your spot on in a general sense. I don't think there are many hard and fast rules to lifting, so long as you're aware of the risks and benefits presented. The power clean is simply a lift with little value to most people. Your either explosive or your not. At 60 I'm sure there are other qualities higher up on the priority list.

[Ericreichelt81]

I totally agree but NONE of this has anything to w/the age of the lifter. It all has to do w/the lifter's ability or lack of it. That was the only point I was trying to make.

It kinda is age related. You're less inclined to avoid injury when you fail a hard rep. This will happen. You can mitigate that fact by doing high pulls of various kinds. This would be the smarter choice given the facts. However, you seem to disregard decades of experience by others, so feel free to miss the pull and learn some lessons. Heck, you might come away singing a different tune in time. Last point, what exactly do you think the PC will do for you? Are you really trying to become more explosive and work on the triple extension? I also find it amusing your only point of argument is what Rip and Starr have written. There's currently at least 1000 high level strength coaches who also have opinions, maybe you should expand your reading to get some other perspectives. Have fun.