Reply With Quotehttp://startingstrength.com/resource...t=14995&page=4Originally Posted by drlvegas
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You're new here and already beating up on msingh. Good job, you learn fast. You'll be squatting more than him in 2 weeks, too, if you actually keep training.
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http://startingstrength.com/resource...t=14995&page=4
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I plan to. I enjoy it. And now that I'll be doing a program with a healthy level of volume in it I might actually be able to recover properly. I don't consume 4,500/5,000 calories per day and sleep 8 hours a night so that I can hoist the same fucking load the following workout.
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Rip's mention of Shankle got me looking around and found this by Mike Burgener.
http://www.mikesgym.org/newsletter/i...IL%20ISSUE.pdf
Very interesting writeup on Japanese weightlifters seeing deadlift strength as really fundamental to Oly lifting, calling it "everyday strength".
(Not saying the piece below supports lorihultman / starr; just thought it intriguing.)
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“How much do you squat?” How many times do you hear this question? It is probably the next question a lifter is asked after they are asked about their competition lifts. But why do we ask just about the squat, why not the dead lift? After all you have to pull a weight first before you stand up with it. In the other parts of the world you may be asked what your dead lift is along with your squat.
My introduction to the concept of regular dead lifting began in the summer of 2000. I received a stipend from the University of Cincinnati to attend advanced language studies in Nagoya, Japan at Nagoya Foreign Language University. Wanting to lift while I was in Nagoya I contacted the Japanese Weightlifting Association and they gave me the name of Chikara Takahashi coach of the Meiden High School Weightlifting team in Na- goya.
Having almost 3 months to study in Nagoya I was able to spend many hours talking training with Coach Takahashi and other coaches and athletes who stopped by to visit and train. Being in close proximity to China and Russia many of the coaches and athletes go to those two countries to train and be coached.
One of the interesting topics that came up regularly was “Do American weightlifters dead lift much?” Outside of RDL’s I told them no. “Why not?” At the time I really didn’t have an answer but as I observed the training of different levels the athletes both male and femail from Jr. to Master I noticed almost everybody dead lifted. Some of the athletes had quite impressive dead lifts. It wasn’t just dead lifts from the floor but off of blocks from various heights targeting specific weak points. Another interesting thing I picked up on is Japanese and Chinese lifters could dead lift what they squat or even exceed their squat max at times. I do want to clarify that the dead lifts were done with a regular overhand grip. Some of the guys would do their deadlifts with straps and some wouldn’t. If you have the grip strength then tape up your thumbs and give it try sans straps.
Curious I asked Coach Takahashi what was up with all the dead lifts. He replied that in Asia the dead lift is viewed as a fundamental strength lift along with the squat; dead lifts are for base pulling strength, squats for stand up strength and press work for pressing strength. He said dead lifts help build and maintain “Everyday strength”. I had never heard that phrase before in English or Japanese; I understood the words but not the con- cept. Everyday strength he explained is strength you have day in and day out. To show me what he mean he walked over to a bar loaded with 200k and dead lifted it with a flat back and little effort weighing only 67.5k at 52 years of age. “I can do this any day of the week and more if I want”.
According to Coach Takahashi this focus on dead lifts and base strength work I was told was a concept they picked up from the Chinese and Russians. The concept has also been accepted in other Asian countries be- sides Japan. The reason is some Asian lifters are not only shorter as a general rule but some Japanese have a longer trunk with shorter legs resulting in weak leverage in regards to the 1st pull and so they develop their dead lifts to compensate for the weak leverage. Secondly if squats build stand up strength then they reasoned dead lifts build pulling strength provided a more complete strength base for a weightlifter.
One example of a Japanese weightlifter with exceptional base pulling strength is a lifter by the name of Nishimoto from Okinawa who held the Japanese national records at 108 and 105k with competition lifts of 180/ 220. He dead lifted 300x2, squatted 310k and pressed 150k. My training partner Toyotaka Murata an 85k lifter I trained with (155/195) dead lifted up to and over 250k and snatch dead lifted around 200k.
Being the curious type I decided to add dead lifting to my training and see what would happen. I found it is possible to train and recover from dead lifting 4X a week. I woud DL 2x off the floor and 2x off blocks at the transition of the 1st and 2nd pull. After three weeks or so I started noticing that cleans which had been a problem in the past starting moving much smoother and my control of the lift improved. For me I was able to see a direct link between a stronger deadlift and the improvement in my clean results.
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Returning to the States in August of 2000 to finish my senior year I really felt physically prepared, confident, and was looking forward to competing in ’01 Nationals. However a week before Christmas 20000 I was
7hit head on by another driver resulting in blunt force trauma to my left knee (think sledgehammer to the knee), lumber/hip problems and a torn muscles in my left shoulder.
After the wreck I really couldn’t put much power through my left knee and gave up trying to squat or do any competition lifts but found I could dead lift. I started doing snatch and clean dead lifts 1x a week. In June of ’01 the pain in my knee somewhat disappeared to the point I could front squat with out much pain. I front squat- ted 2x the first week and on the second week feeling my oats I decided to see what I could do for a double. I worked up to 150K (pretty much pain free) and then did 180k for a single! 1 month later I front squatted 200k for a single! This was without doing squats of any kind and only dead lifts for 6 months. It was a major shock to me; it didn’t make sense to me. How could I front squat 200k for a single without front squatting for 6 months with a gimpy knee? Maybe there was something to this dead lift thing... This was massive paradigm shift for me and really started me on a study of training techniques from around the world to see what kind of different techniques and methodologies were being used and if they had application here in the US.
As I started studying anything and everything strength related one of the things I did find out is that lift- ers here in the States during the 60’s and 70’s dead lifted. Some of our past champions had dead lifts that would have won power lifting meets in their day. For example, Norbert Schemansky dead lifted 200 lbs over his 445 C&J, squatted around 600, benched 440 and curled 225. Bill March another 60’s era lifter had a 575 dead lift, 315 snatch, and a 405 C&J. In this era the RDL has become popular with weighlifters and powerlifters here in the States after it was demonstrated by Nicu Vlad at the USOTC in the early 90’s. In an article taken from the USAW magazine it was reported that Vlad did a 300kg x 2 RDL (USAW magazine article titled (Vlad’s Pulling “Secret”: The RDL.) Do you think that 300k RDL helped? You Betcha!
Looking at our recent Super Heavy weight national champions it is interesting to note that the past two were world class power lifters before switching over to weightlifting. Mark Henry dead lifted 905. That’s 905 folks, no matter what that is a lot of weight. I think that you can count the number of men in the world on one hand who have squatted and deadlifted over 900, snatched 180k and C&J’d at least 220. In the late 60’s and early 70‘s the great Jon Cole from Arizona was not only a great weightlifter but also a world class power lifter and thrower who could deadlifted in the mid 800’s.
On the subject of throwing; I learned that hammer throwers utilize the dead lift in their training. I had the chance to train several times for extended periods of time with the French National record holder in the Hammer and 3 time Olympian Chritophe Apelle at 6’7” 275 lbs seemed like the last person who would dead lift. He to the best of my knowledge still has the 15th best throw of all time in the Hammer. One day while we were training together I watched him dead lift 250k 5x5. He said his max was 315k. He told me that every ma- jor hammer thrower in Europe he knows and some here in the States dead lifted regularly. It is interesting to note that he did all dead lifts overhand with no straps until his hands tired then he would alternate to supinated right hand over, switch to supinated left over so that his hands would not develop a strength imbalance. Try that if your feeling your wheaties.
On the subject of weightlifters and power lifters according to Lou DeMarco Dimitri Klokov’s training consists of a 2x a day training plan. In the AM power lifting style bench, deadlift, squat in the morning and then the Olympic lifts in the evening. Something to think about. (Thanks, Lou)
I hope that this little article will be of benefit to some of you who read this. Please feel free to email me with feed back and your own experiences. I consider this a living article in that I will update it from time to time if there is enough feedback and people want to contribute routines for the good of everyone. I like to look at all exercises as tools in a toolbox, the greater the number of tools the greater chance of finding the right combination of tools necessary to accomplish a job.
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Same Burgener newsletter
Conversation with the most recent American World Champion in Oly lifting (1969 in Warsaw; thx mc.)
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Conversations With A Champion. – Joe Dube
"To be a Champion you have to be Strong and lift like a Champion."
--Joe Dube
In writing this article I had several email conversation with Joe Dube and I want to personally thank him for his contribution. I was originally going to weave his comments into the article but felt that they stand on their own. Enjoy...
Q: What are some of your best lifts:
Joe: Some of my best's on the Squat was: 660 x 23 reps, 710 x 17 reps, 745 x 5 for 4 sets. As I said, these were full rock bottom and with my feet about shoulder width or a little less. Sometimes I would do them with a nar- row foot spacing, about a foot apart. This would help my pulling from the floor. I also would do about once every 10-15 days, Quarter Squats, taking the weight off the racks and stepping back. I worked up to around 1400 lbs. for 3 sets of 10 reps. This really helped the drive in the Jerk.
My best ever "Power Clean" was 452 and my best Clean & Jerk was 485. My best Clean & Press was 475 un- official, 463 official. I once did a Military Press in training with 429.
Q: What is your opinion on the role of squats for a weighlifter?
Joe: I believe as Paul Anderson did, that Squats will increase a lifters Clean & Jerk. It's common sense that if a lifter with good technique and is flexable, and increases his leg power considerability, will C & J more. Paul Anderson, the "King" of the Squat. had the power, in my way of thinking, to Clean & Jerk 550 - 600 lbs. If he had the flexibility and technique, he would have done a lot more than he did. Paul and I discussed the values of the Squat and this is why I decided that I was going to work on this exercise and make good of it for my lifting.
Q: Joe do you feel military press still has an application for todays lifters?
Joe: I do think that Military Pressing is beneficial for the lifters overhead strength for the Jerk and should be practiced or included in the schedule. Other good exercise's for the lifter to do in their training is the Push Press and Power Jerks. These are great movements for the lifters shoulder power as well as their overhead lockout power.
Q: Do you feel that the dead lift is applicable for weightlifters?
Joe: As for the Dead Lift. I think they are great for developing that overall back power for the Snatch and Clean & Jerk, " if done in the correct way" with the Clean and Snatch Grip. And what I mean by this is, pulling with your back flat and in the same position as you clean or snatch. They also should be done with explosive speed at all times. I don't believe and I would not recommend that an Olympic Lifter do them slow with max. weights.
Again, I do believe that Dead Lifts are a must for the Olympic Lifter. I have seen a lot of lifters doing their Pulls with straps and with a shrug. They were only working up to about maybe 20-30 pounds more than they could clean and doing only a single or double with it. . I think they should be working up to maybe 50 -100 lbs. more than they could clean and doing anywhere from at least 3 to 5 reps with the weight. They are missing out on de- veloping greater pulling power by not doing these as I mentioned.
Q: How strong do you feel a weightlifter should be?
Joe: I think that an Olympic Lifter should have big Squats and Dead lifts and try to be as strong as they can get.
Q: Did you ever do a max dead lift just to see what you could do?
Joe: Don't ever remember trying any limits on the dead lifts during the later years of my lifting. I did do them, but did them in sets of 5's most everytime I did them. They were always done with the correct olympic pulling position and with explosive speed. I know that I did work well over 700 lbs. for sets of 5's. I always like doing these in sets of 5's.
Q: Do you have any thoughts and feeling on how USAW could have used the great knowledge resource of our past world and Olympic champions?
Joe: I think that the USAW should have contacted Lifting Greats years back and tried to get their thought's and knowledge on training and what they would suggest that younger lifters do in their training.
Thanks to Joe Dube
In conclusion a big dead lift or squat alone will not ensure success; limit strength must be converted into suc- cess on the plat form. In racing terms a powerful engine in a car or motorcycle will not guarantee success, the total package must tuned and developed to take advantage of the increase in power. The same goes for weight- lifting An increase in pulling and leg strength needs to be developed and converted into success in competition. However all things equal an excess of strength will always beat a lack of strength. Strength is like money; hav- ing a lot of it is better than not enough.
Here are couple of ideas for add dead lifts into one’s training. Please feel free to submit your own and I will gather them together and have Mike post them on the site at a later date.
I thought I was so smart in developing the following routine only to see a version of it being used over in Japan and a variation of it used by some power lifters here in the States. Dead lift first once your finished dead lifting reduce the weight to what is normally done for pulls, perform the pull s, then further reduce the weight and do a clean or power clean variation that way you finish with speed. I stated above I learned one ver- sion of this in Japan where like us here in the States most lifters are self supported and training time is limited. This can also be done using a Snatch dead lift.
Mike Burgener has a DL/RDL combo that may be of interest to some of you. “pick weight off ground keeping tight and back at the same angle all the way thru to the end of the first pull....then drive the knees forward (scoop) creating a high chest...right before the explosion phase of the lift....then extend upward (stand up). at this point its just positioning work, but I anticipate that the lifters will be lifting well in excess of their cleans and or snatch.” Give it a try and feel free to feedback.
In preparation for this article I talked with various lifters and coaches and want to thank them for their time and input. In particularly Joe Dube, Pietr Elmendorf, Lou De Marco, John Davies, and Chikara Takahashi among others.
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Last edited by Monster; 04-30-2010 at 12:58 PM.
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Joe Dube was the last American to win a world championship in weightlifting (1969). He clean and pressed 463 lbs. Last I checked, he still actively posts over at goheavy.com.
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I posted the following on the moderated forum, I am a little concerned about it going up. If it does I will be more than happy to congragulate the moderators and admit that my fears were unfounded. But in the meantime, here are some responses to the post that was linked to in this thread.
Are you going to claim that Glenn Pendlay was not the coach of Josh or Trey... or maybe even that you coached them? I hope not. Wasnt the situation of certain coaches taking "credit" for lifters they didnt really coach one of the issues that prompted you to go to that BOG meeting a few years back and put in your vote to throw the bums out?
No one is claiming, or has claimed that Olympic lifting isn't a strength sport... but, its easy to knock those straw men down, isnt it? It is a strength sport, specifically concerning how strong you are in the snatch and clean and jerk. Powerlifting is where you compete on the squat and deadlift, and oh yeah bench press
Really, Shankle is Mike's lifter? Shankles situation, according to Donny Shankle Himself, is as follows. He trained in Mikes gym for 3-4 months, usually doing his own thing. He admits he was pretty uncoachable. Then he moved to Wichita Falls, Texas to be coached by Glenn Pendlay, where he remained for almost 3 years, this time period culminated in him doing a 165kg snatch, a 201kg clean and jerk, making the Pan Am team, and beating the defending world champion Klockov at the 2006 Arnold Championships. He then moved to the OTC to become a resident athlete, which started a rather turmoil filled time, involving him moving around quite a bit, but ultimately ending up with Glenns encouragement in going to California to train under Ivan Abajeev, who was at the time coaching in northern California. It is I think important to note that during all the moving around and the turmoil, he always listed Glenn as his coach, and Glenn has been back coaching him in the gym on a day to day basis for roughly the past year, and Donny has done a 172.5kg snatch and a 210kg clean and jerk recently in training.
So doesnt it seem rather odd to label Donny as Mike's lifter? Almost as odd as taking exception to the naming of Josh Wells and Trey Goodwins coach...
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For those confused about the conversation happening, here's an unbroken link of the above.
http://www.startingstrength.com/reso...t=14995&page=4
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I totally agree with that, in regards to this great site, and also in regards to Mark Rippetoes advice. I agree with the huge majority of what he has to say. SS is a great book and I am glad its out there. I just find his comments about the state of affairs in OL in regards to training and politics a little baffling. Other than that, I am on board with most of what he says
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