Power cleans autoregulate the correct load while speed deadlifts do not. With experience, and perhaps some accommodating resistance, I think speed deadlifts can be used effectively.
Originally Posted by s-m
+1 for power cleans. I like your thoughts on Auto regulation of the weight. The Practice in stepping to the bar, grabbing it and moving it upwards in a rapid manner to a rack position is so basic, and if it is too heavy you can't move it fast enough to rack it. This can only make you better in the dead lift. There is something stimulating in generating power(load x speed). It drives the other lifts.
I still fall back to the field of thought that if the novice is squatting to appropriate depth with the prescribed form that should drive the deadlift up along with the form practice with PC's and the 1 set of 5 dead lifts that progresses every time it comes around. I still think gaining a pound or 2 a week from here to 220 will put a tailwind on this case.
An interesting side note: Louie got the whole "don't deadlift" thing from a Bill Starr article.
Originally Posted by Tom Narvaez
Rip has said he didn't deadlift save at competition either. He only did rack pulls and haltings towards the end.
As for the auto-regulation, I agree. But let's say someone just has complete shit for power potential. Will someone whose power clean is only 40% of their deadlift benefit as much the pull volume offered by power cleans? Or would it be better for them to speed deadlift at 60%? I mean this in the genetic sense, as in their power clean can only ever be 40% of their deadlift.
The point of speed deadlifts is to be fast. If you can't clean 40%, and it isn't a technique issue, you probably can't pull 60% fast, either. At that point, what you're actually doing is light volume deadlifts. Nonetheless, speed deadlifts are more specific so the argument could be made either way. In the context of "SS", it is wise to do the cleans.
Agreed on just doing the cleans in SS. I was just speculating on a hypothesis as it were.
in terms of tools to get better at the deadlift... I think the power clean or clean is very far down on that list...
Ive pulled 525 and cleaned like 275 my clean setup and form is TOTALLY different than my deadlift setup, grips, grip width, hip angle, EVERYTHING.
If you want to get better at deadlifting you need to either get stronger with the deadlift or use movements that are closely related to the deadlift. IMO
and again this all my opinion.
Stuff like RDL's, and speed deads make way more sense and are more effective in getting better at the deadlift.
Way better than power cleans.
BUT ZOMG PAT THATS NOT WHAT RIP SAYS. Dont care.
Originally Posted by Patrick Stroup
I agree with you Stroup.
I've never cleaned more than like 195 or 200lbs and I've deadlifted over 500lbs. My clean is awful and I don't think it impacted my deadlift in any way.
I think the takeaway point is that if you're dead-set on doing SS, do the cleans. Not enough pulling volume without them.
I personally don't actually think the novice program is ideal for novice powerlifters for a variety of reasons: doesn't introduce the sumo deadlift, doesn't introduce competition technique, it has equal overhead to bench frequency and volume, too much squat volume, not enough pulling volume, and not enough upperback work (this is debatable, granted). Then again, the novice program is not intended for novice powerlifters nor is it intended specifically to increase 1RM in the powerlifts.
I think the squatting volume is fine - as long as the weight is going up. Sumo is only relevant if sumo is what you'll end up using, and I think a novice PLer should at least start conventional. But I think the rest of your points have some merit.