New Shoe: Sabo GoodLift (flats)

[Cody]

From the floor, of course. A little bit of heel elevation effects things differently, (again: in my current mental model), from the same amount of entire-foot elevation.

The only difference is how much dorsiflexion you have. 1" of total heel height has an identical effect to doing a 1" deficit pull in slippers.

Edit: a visual for you. Imagine you're barefoot, standing on a 1" deficit, gripping the bar like you're going to deadlift. Now, imagine that the platform you're standing on disappears except for where your heel is. The ball of your foot drops to the floor, but with the heel of your foot still supported 1" high, the rest of your body remains exactly as it was.

[Adam Skillin]

The only difference is how much dorsiflexion you have. 1" of total heel height has an identical effect to doing a 1" deficit pull in slippers.

Edit: a visual for you. Imagine you're barefoot, standing on a 1" deficit, gripping the bar like you're going to deadlift. Now, imagine that the platform you're standing on disappears except for where your heel is. The ball of your foot drops to the floor, but with the heel of your foot still supported 1" high, the rest of your body remains exactly as it was.

Sure. I'm not arguing that you don't have farther to pull the bar. But what happens to the tibial and hence knee angles in your example?

[Cody]

Sure. I'm not arguing that you don't have farther to pull the bar. But what happens to the tibial and hence knee angles in your example?

Knee angle remains identical while the ankle angle opens up.

[Coconut Chris]

Sure. I'm not arguing that you don't have farther to pull the bar. But what happens to the tibial and hence knee angles in your example?

In Cody's example, the tibia makes the same angle with respect to the floor. Alternatively, imagine setting up in heels, and pulling your toes up 0.75 in; your butt remains at the same height.

You don't have to set up with a narrower knee angle, but you can, using the same dorsiflexion as you would use pulling in flats. This allows lower hips and a slightly more upright back angle, as you know. But you could do this with no effective heel height too, just with more dorsiflexion, since deadlifts don't test the end ranges of dorsiflexion when the bar is over midfoot.

The question is, why might relaxing dorsiflexion constraints improve a deadlift, since pulling from a deficit is weaker?

[Cody]

The question is, why might relaxing dorsiflexion constraints improve a deadlift, since pulling from a deficit is weaker?

I would propose that a more closed ankle angle also means the calves can contribute more than when open.

[Coconut Chris]

I would propose that a more closed ankle angle also means the calves can contribute more than when open.

This seems to make sense.

In such a position, eccentric lengthening of the calf muscle helps in anchoring the tibia angle, so the hamstring needn't assist as much to keep the knees in position. I suppose that shortening the hamstring makes it easier to extend the lumbar erectors, but I don't know enough about how muscles contract and extend to be confident in this conclusion.

In practice, I've found it a little easier to set up with a flat back in heels than in low, flat shoes, but this is because I set up with a narrower tibia-ground angle anyway.

[gtl]

Soooooo Sabo GoodLifts?

[Adam Skillin]

In Cody's example, the tibia makes the same angle with respect to the floor. Alternatively, imagine setting up in heels, and pulling your toes up 0.75 in; your butt remains at the same height.

You don't have to set up with a narrower knee angle, but you can, using the same dorsiflexion as you would use pulling in flats. This allows lower hips and a slightly more upright back angle, as you know. But you could do this with no effective heel height too, just with more dorsiflexion, since deadlifts don't test the end ranges of dorsiflexion when the bar is over midfoot.

The question is, why might relaxing dorsiflexion constraints improve a deadlift, since pulling from a deficit is weaker?

Hmm. Aren't the feet effectively shorter with the heel? Not enough to matter? Still thinking this through...

[Daverin]

That is how I understand it. I know a couple of powerlifters feel they can get more quads. The Massthetics crew actually had a couple of videos on using Oly shoes, and talked about how the shoe creates a slightly more closed knee angle and a slightly more upright torso. That won't work by just dorsiflexing more in a flat shoe, unless you are willing to also disprove the midfoot pulling position. The Oly shoes let you cheat that slightly by requiring you to adjust the other levers to keep the scapular/lat angle that seems to work strongest.

Bear in mind that range of motion is not what makes the deficit harder. Its the mechanics at the new range that matter. In other words, its true that deficit pulls are harder, but that is because we just seem to get worse and worse the further the bar is from lockout. In the case of the Oly shoes, the idea would be that the above change in knee and torso is at least worth the slight increase in depth, if not more mechanically useful.

Can't actually say if that is a good trade-off or not, though.

[Adam Skillin]

Okay, so are we all agreeing that raising the heel has a non-negligible effect on tibial angle but dropping toes does not, or only minimally? Just want to understand where we're at right now.

Can't actually say if that is a good trade-off or not, though.

From my experience, it seems to be a better trade-off for lifters who fail right at the floor than for those that tend to fail above the knee or with people who have longer legs and shorter torsos or people who have larger deadlift:squat ratios. And those things may be correlated in and of themselves. But that may all not be right. Wheels are still turning...