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Thread: Do early novices need 6000 calories a day?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murelli View Post
    When arguing with Kregna we all must keep in mind that he's prone to dogmatic behaviour and belief, ergo, when he shoves something in his mind, nobody is going to pry it out, no matter how hard everybody pulls.

    That said, I believe three different people have already provided the example. The only problem is that the people who are the example are not the type of people who usually enjoy online discussions about the minutiae of lifting.

    Finally, a clarification is needed. Kregna, besides footy, which sports people tend to play in HS in Britain?
    Certainly not. I am happy to discuss points. You think I'm stubborn because I don't change my mind, but that's because I'm not convinced. I am open to changing my mind but not just because a lot of people said the opposite of what I'm saying. You all seem to get upset when I start trying to discuss the points you make. 2-3 posts in and you get annoyed because I haven't just accepted what you've said

    I may overreact but I don't start making the personal attacks, that always comes from someone else first

    Rugby is fairly common in nicer schools. Things like tennis, swimming, netball

  2. #52
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    Well, I hate to ruin a good shitposting thread by replying seriously but...

    My advice to a novice on body weight would be very context dependent. Unlike The Program, you cannot simply give everyone the same recommendations. The advice for a skinny prospective HS athlete is very different than the chubby, middle-aged computer programmer who just wants improved quality of life.

    Still, I encourage people to cut and bulk for the most part. Even novices. I don't think it makes any sense to fetishize the numbers that you finish LP with. It matters where you end up in the long run. For most people, there isn't a competitive season around the corner or anything like that. So, in my opinion, they don't really need to milk LP for everything it is worth as fast as they possibly can. Training is a long term commitment.

    In my experience, you cannot "waste your LP". You can always redo simpler programming when you're in a surplus if you start out training in a deficit.

    So, TL;DR:
    I think skinny/underweight/lean novices should gain weight at an appropriate pace that optimizes the ratio of LBM to fat gained. I think fat novices should actually diet and begin their training in a caloric deficit.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kregna View Post
    Certainly not. I am happy to discuss points. You think I'm stubborn because I don't change my mind, but that's because I'm not convinced. I am open to changing my mind but not just because a lot of people said the opposite of what I'm saying. You all seem to get upset when I start trying to discuss the points you make. 2-3 posts in and you get annoyed because I haven't just accepted what you've said

    I may overreact but I don't start making the personal attacks, that always comes from someone else first

    Rugby is fairly common in nicer schools. Things like tennis, swimming, netball
    Fair enough. Swimmers and rugby players might get away with the 6k, no?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Narvaez View Post
    Well, I hate to ruin a good shitposting thread by replying seriously but...

    My advice to a novice on body weight would be very context dependent. Unlike The Program, you cannot simply give everyone the same recommendations. The advice for a skinny prospective HS athlete is very different than the chubby, middle-aged computer programmer who just wants improved quality of life.

    Still, I encourage people to cut and bulk for the most part. Even novices. I don't think it makes any sense to fetishize the numbers that you finish LP with. It matters where you end up in the long run. For most people, there isn't a competitive season around the corner or anything like that. So, in my opinion, they don't really need to milk LP for everything it is worth as fast as they possibly can. Training is a long term commitment.

    In my experience, you cannot "waste your LP". You can always redo simpler programming when you're in a surplus if you start out training in a deficit.

    So, TL;DR:
    I think skinny/underweight/lean novices should gain weight at an appropriate pace that optimizes the ratio of LBM to fat gained. I think fat novices should actually diet and begin their training in a caloric deficit.
    1) You need to improve your shitposting taste;

    2) That's great advice. It is not worth becoming 400# squatting Jabba just as it's not sane to pursue a 1000# total without losing the six pack. I dig your philosophy;

    3) Is your client base mainly powerlifting? I ask it because teenagers usually don't have the money to afford strength coaching.

  4. #54
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    I can tell you that when I was a teenager, I was 6'1" and 155lbs. Obviously, I didn't track calories. But I would routinely eat an entire medium pizza. Or 4 cheeseburgers, large fries, a large soda and a pint of frozen custard for lunch. Or half anpan of homemade lasagne. I was eating at this level without working out, and I didn't gain a single pound. You tell me how someone like this would be able to gain muscle running an LP without eating an obscene number of calories.

    I'm 40 now, but I didn't even consider trying to eat that many calories. Do you know why? I did some simple research, like reading Jordan's nutrition forum.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Narvaez View Post
    Well, I hate to ruin a good shitposting thread by replying seriously but...

    My advice to a novice on body weight would be very context dependent. Unlike The Program, you cannot simply give everyone the same recommendations. The advice for a skinny prospective HS athlete is very different than the chubby, middle-aged computer programmer who just wants improved quality of life.

    Still, I encourage people to cut and bulk for the most part. Even novices. I don't think it makes any sense to fetishize the numbers that you finish LP with. It matters where you end up in the long run. For most people, there isn't a competitive season around the corner or anything like that. So, in my opinion, they don't really need to milk LP for everything it is worth as fast as they possibly can. Training is a long term commitment.

    In my experience, you cannot "waste your LP". You can always redo simpler programming when you're in a surplus if you start out training in a deficit.

    So, TL;DR:
    I think skinny/underweight/lean novices should gain weight at an appropriate pace that optimizes the ratio of LBM to fat gained. I think fat novices should actually diet and begin their training in a caloric deficit.
    That last sentence really sums it up for me perfectly and aligns with what I've thought about this since I started. Great post.

    Quote Originally Posted by schmatt View Post
    I can tell you that when I was a teenager, I was 6'1" and 155lbs. Obviously, I didn't track calories. But I would routinely eat an entire medium pizza. Or 4 cheeseburgers, large fries, a large soda and a pint of frozen custard for lunch. Or half anpan of homemade lasagne. I was eating at this level without working out, and I didn't gain a single pound. You tell me how someone like this would be able to gain muscle running an LP without eating an obscene number of calories.

    I'm 40 now, but I didn't even consider trying to eat that many calories. Do you know why? I did some simple research, like reading Jordan's nutrition forum.
    Ditto. In my teens I would regularly sit and eat an entire Dominos pizza in a sitting, or a Big Mac meal plus another cheeseburger or two AND a sundae. Was never fat as a teen and into my early twenties. Partly age/metabolism, partly activity levels/lifestyle - playing/training basketball, cross country running, etc etc.

    Life changes man. By my late twenties I'd started blowing up and through most of my thirties I was overweight. Not morbidly obese, but obese all the same.

    There is simply no need for a 40 year old fat guy to eat that much on an LP; they just gotta eat sensibly and get the right amount of protein to sustain strength gains. The fact is that our demographic ain't gonna synthesize new muscle that quickly anyway.

  6. #56
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    You mean some of you guys ate thousands and thousands of calories and didn't get insanely fat? Someone here is fainting of shock as we speak.

  7. #57
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    You don't have to employ gluttony to become strong.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meshuggah View Post
    You don't have to employ gluttony to become strong.
    I think most of us agree with that, but Kregna's original question was just so uninformed and uneducated and he became so defensive after he got a few responses that it just set me off.

  9. #59
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    Kregna -

    There are lots of muscle boards out there, not sure if you are on others but I assure you that the most common new guy posts you find on all of them is the story of the skinny guy who can't gain weight.* Seriously, it is so damn common that on other boards with higher traffic I literally have chunks of the the reply I will make saved in a fucking notepad file because I got tired of typing the same thing.

    1. ALL of them claim some large calorie number per day eaten.

    2. 1% percent or less can actually produce a food tracker history or food diary of ANY kind to back up the claim. They do not keep track. At all. Ever.

    3. When pressed to keep a diary for a SINGLE week, the vast majority will outright refuse.

    4. The tiny remainder who do ALWAYS show that they massively overestimated their daily intake (and macros). I can not recall a single time when this has not been the case.

    5. The even fewer who then use the tracker to titrate their calories up make progress. Every. Time. The more they push the calorie ceiling the faster they go (to a point as Tom mentions).

    If these folks make it to #5 I always point them to Doc F's To Be a Beast and the smart ones to Tom's site PTW if they really want to dial it in.

    I believe Rip's original guidance was for skinny guys who actually want to be strong, who aren't shooting to be figure athletes or body builders, and as stated is only meant to be followed for a few months, not a year, and not for life.

    It is meant to take a little guy from say 130lbs to 180lbs or 190lbs QUICKLY and then be refined, much in the same way that their training will become more refined as they pass from Novice to intermediate and beyond.

    They (the skinny dude in question) COULD lower the amount of calories that are using for overage and still gain the same weight, yes, but as you already sussed out for yourself it would be much slower. For a 16 year old kid with something like a summer+ of football offseason to undertake a "get off the bench" program, some initial speed is of the essence and the quick progress helps to ensure that they won't simply give up the program due to not seeing progress or results.

    *The second most common is the fat guy who "can't lose pounds" but who also won't track shit.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by greywar View Post
    *The second most common is the fat guy who "can't lose pounds" but who also won't track shit.
    Yep. And time and time again, studies show that even when the fat guy does track his calories, he's the exact opposite of the skinny 'hard gainer' guy. He underestimates his calories, and/or 'forgets' about that donut and chocolate milk he had before lunch, whatever.

    So many people on both ends of the weight spectrum claim to be special snowflakes, have poor metabolisms, whatever... and there do exist people with thyroid function issues and stuff like that but they are a tiny minority. For everyone else, it's the law of freaking thermodynamics.

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