If You Love Deadlifts...

[perman]

This whole steroid thing is pretty complex and difficult subject. Judging and banning is just naive and causes more problems than fixes (similar topic to guns, drugs, prostitution and all the other vices people have).

This issue is not the same for sports in general as it is for powerlifting. Powerlifting has untested feds. Steroid users can compete there once they're caught. If the issue is that you need huge stacks to win untested, and that tested keeps athletes health in check, first of all, it's not a human right to win, secondly going on mega-stacks probably has diminishing returns. Greg Nuckols famously came up with a 10% estimate for how much gains you can get from steroids.

Your guns, drugs, prostitution examples are stupid, I'm pro-legalization of all of them, but that doesn't mean I think the customer gets to set the terms. Any rights a person has stops where it infringes on others rights, and getting price money and fame because you are winning by ignoring the terms is not a legitimate expression of individual rights, you are violating the voluntary contract you are competing under.

[Cody]

and that tested keeps athletes health in check

Tested feds don't exist to "keep athlete's health in check" AT ALL.

Many athletes end up having to compromise on what medications they take to compete in any WADA fed. Seriously. Go look at all the very common and effective medicines that are banned. Those medicines aren't banned for the athlete's health, they're banned because they can offer performance enhancement if abused.

Get your facts straight.

[Daverin]

People like to over estimate the advantage what one gets from the drugs. They don't add 50lbs to your total or give wings (or wheels?).

So what about putting 265 lbs on your total in a year? Because that is what Ben Pollack accomplished within about a year of his last IPF meet to his first USPA meet.

EDIT: Actually, it was from October of 2015 to May of 2016. So perhaps closer to three quarters of a year.

[Cmmm]

This issue is not the same for sports in general as it is for powerlifting. Powerlifting has untested feds. Steroid users can compete there once they're caught. If the issue is that you need huge stacks to win untested, and that tested keeps athletes health in check, first of all, it's not a human right to win, secondly going on mega-stacks probably has diminishing returns. Greg Nuckols famously came up with a 10% estimate for how much gains you can get from steroids.

Your guns, drugs, prostitution examples are stupid, I'm pro-legalization of all of them, but that doesn't mean I think the customer gets to set the terms. Any rights a person has stops where it infringes on others rights, and getting price money and fame because you are winning by ignoring the terms is not a legitimate expression of individual rights, you are violating the voluntary contract you are competing under.

I think you've misunderstood me. I do not accept using steroids in drug free meets. Its a tool thatt is denied from the competition, period. My reference to the drugs and hookers were that people use them anyway, so legalizing them could ease up the control.

So I do not justify steroid using in drug free PL, it is an unfair advantage. I just bring up the problem that drug free is not ever really drug free and we can not surely say who uses and doesnt. This problem wont disappear with legislation either. Therefore I've personally stopped caring.

But I do think that downplaying PED users is also stupid. Only a minority of the population could do what Coan did, no matter how much steroids would they use.

And of course steroids give advantage, but they're just one part in the equation. And its really hard to really estimate how much they give.

One thing I disagree though is that nattys would need somehow more complex training than steroid users. Same principles still apply, users just get better respond from what they do.

[BBB]

Am I reading this wrong, or are you saying Coan didn't compete in a tested federation?

That is in fact what I said, but then looked it up and it looks like I was wrong: Ed Coan - Wikipedia.

I wonder where he would be if he went untested.

Here's an interesting read: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...fects-of-peds/

Well, not directly. If Frank the Forumposter deadlifts 575lbs and start using PEDs, he does not suddenly jump to 600lbs. You get more out from the volume you're doing and recover little better. You still need to do all the same shit than before to get better.

Have you ever done anything or know anyone who has? I know one guy and his results were INSANE (after a single 8-week cycle).

So what about putting 265 lbs on your total in a year? Because that is what Ben Pollack accomplished within about a year of his last IPF meet to his first USPA meet.

EDIT: Actually, it was from October of 2015 to May of 2016. So perhaps closer to three quarters of a year.

To be fair, different rules. First of all, a deadlift bar alone helps a LOT. USPA allows spotters to assist the lifter in removing the weight from the squat rack. Judging is pretty strict in USAPL/IPF and looser in other feds, etc. But yeah... those things alone don't account for such a huge bump at that level in such a short amount of time.

[Cmmm]

So what about putting 265 lbs on your total in a year? Because that is what Ben Pollack accomplished within about a year of his last IPF meet to his first USPA meet.

EDIT: Actually, it was from October of 2015 to May of 2016. So perhaps closer to three quarters of a year.

That's pretty impressive. He must have reacted pretty well to steroids, but there may have been other factors at play too. 265lbs under a year is a HUGE leap in advanced level, even a minority of drug users could do that.

PS. yeah, the rules might explain a lot.

[Cmmm]

Here's an interesting read: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...fects-of-peds/

This is clearly interesting, and can give an estimation how much PEDs give to you.

[Cody]

a deadlift bar alone helps a LOT.

We've discussed this before, quite recently. It has a very small ROM difference. It does have better grip than a 29mm bar. But there are also people that lift less on a DL bar. Either way, saying A LOT isn't very accurate except for midgets doing sumo.

Judging is pretty strict in USAPL/IPF and looser in other feds, etc.

USPA has quality judging.

[Meshuggah]

We've discussed this before, quite recently. It has a very small ROM difference. It does have better grip than a 29mm bar. But there are also people that lift less on a DL bar. Either way, saying A LOT isn't very accurate except for midgets doing sumo.

Agreed. I have an Okie Deadlift Bar, it does not help A LOT. I've had it for 1 1/2 years and have only used it 4 times. I don't care much for it.
Quick Fact: Ed Coan's 901 Deadlift was done with a regular (stiff) power bar.

[BBB]

We've discussed this before, quite recently. It has a very small ROM difference. It does have better grip than a 29mm bar. But there are also people that lift less on a DL bar. Either way, saying A LOT isn't very accurate except for midgets doing sumo.

Ok, let me quantify... I've seen people increase a 700lb deadlift by 30-50lbs with a DL bar.