A Re-clarification?

[Gonzalo]

I've recently began starting strength as a bulking program.

I'm currently 17, 135 lb, 5' 9", with a genetically low body fat percentage (less than 10%) and a mix of a mesomorph and an ectomorph.

My goals are *EXTREMELY* original. I plan to gain 30-40 lb and strength using this program, cut the fat from my body afterwards, and then simply maintain my physique.

As of yesterday, I had been consuming 3000 calories daily. Today, I decided to up the calories to 4000 a day (with the whole milk gallon and a ratio of 30 fat, 20 protein, and 50 carbohydrates).

My first question would be: is 4000 daily calories sufficient for a person like me to reach 165-175 lb, or should I switch to a 5000 calorie diet? My basal metabolic rate is 1666 and when I use a weight gain calculator, the result rarely even reaches 3000 calories, which causes me to think that this daily amount is excessive. However, I don't mind the more aggressive approach. Besides, this isn't a particularly subtle program.

Also, as long as the 4000 calorie mark is reached (I use fitday to record every meal) and the macro nutrients are satisfied, do I have to drink the complete gallon of whole milk? I realize that saturated fat is considered healthy and that the extra 2400 calories would only help me to reach my goal calories faster, but if I happen to get my calories elsewhere sometimes (perhaps from even healthier sources) and omit some of the gallon, would that be a problem for muscular development?

Thanks Mark

[Gonzalo]

Well, I just came back from my last workout of the 4th week. I'm disappointed. I'm quite literally thinking about restarting the entire program.

First off, right from the first week I started with extremely poor form and excessive weights (I mean really, 95 lb power cleans to start is ridiculous!). Also, I was under the impression from some web site (I do have both books, though I'm reading them as I do the program) that I should increase weights WEEKLY instead of every workout.

To make all of this even worse, today my squat was dying (the usual pain I experience in my inner thigh became extremely severe), my over head press completely failed (couldn't even do one set), and my power cleans where near impossible to do (I couldn't even do one).

Then I came back to this site, just to see that my questions weren't even answered, but moved.

You know what, I'm not disappointed. I'm fucking devastated.

[JoeM]

Hi Gonzalo,

Do you know what a "troll" is? It's someone who says things that are massively ill-informed and inflammatory to generate a strong reaction from members of an online community for the fun of it.

This quote from your last email:
"First off, right from the first week I started with extremely poor form and excessive weights (I mean really, 95 lb power cleans to start is ridiculous!). Also, I was under the impression from some web site (I do have both books, though I'm reading them as I do the program) that I should increase weights WEEKLY instead of every workout."

is either a perfect example of a troll setting out the bait or an exceedingly ill-informed post by a newbie who hasn't even tried to avail himself of the massive amount of information that has been made available to him in Mark's books and on this board. If you are the former, I hope you will just go away now, if you are the latter, then use this as an opportunity to do yourself a world of good by reading carefully and making adjustments before you get so pissed off by the replies your comments are likely to generate that you give up on the whole endeavor.

Good luck, Joe

[veryhrm]

Take it easy chief.

On your calorie thing/milk question. A few things (and i'm no SS official or anything):
Eat normally (whatever that means for you) and drink your milk. Prob want to start w/ maybe half a gallon a day ... ramp up from there. 4000 vs 5000 cals a day isn't going to make or break your SS experience. However, keep in mind that BMR stuff is mostly BS. Estimating is neither accurate nor precise and the SS program is going to affect your caloric usage a lot.

On the form: if you're just working by yourself you might have to practice for a couple of workouts w/ particularly light weights to get the form down for the exercises. If you have a coach who can basically give you feedback right away during and after the set then you can have the basic form together in just one or two workouts but working by yourself don't be surprised if it takes longer. Don't start eating a lot until you're actually doing the program and are ready to start increasing weights though since you'll otherwise be gaining fat for no good reason. Read the book(s).. do the program. Learn to enjoy elbow pain. :-)

[Gonzalo]

[This ] is either a perfect example of a troll setting out the bait or an exceedingly ill-informed post by a newbie who hasn't even tried to avail himself of the massive amount of information that has been made available to him in Mark's books and on this board.

So, I'm either a jerk or an idiot...great

Guess I'll have to take the latter, though granted, I did learn about the adjustment rates for the program previous to this and implemented it at that moment (though it was pretty much too late). And yes I started off doing a 95 lb power clean because I decided it would be an awesome idea to use the basic strength standards in the back of Practical Programming as a guide. Then again, at that point (4 week ago) I wasn't sure what 1RM meant and I considered myself a novice since I had done some dumbbell work in the past. I used these standards to start ALL of my lifts, probably explains why they're either stalled or stalling. Anyway, your cynicism saddens me...I have my workout logs recorded on Word, if you want I can post them as proof.

[Gonzalo]

I'm already used to eating 3000 and 4000 calories, but I can usually reach that number without drinking the entire gallon (if I do the calories would probably go past 5000). I just need a number that I can use consistently throughout the program. I could really use some confirmation, is 4000 enough for this program to work as intended (At least for me)?

As for the form, I guess I've had 12 workout sessions to work on them and i'm finally understanding how to do the power clean correctly. I don't have a coach or anybody to help me that actually knows what starting strength is, it's just me.

I'm unsure, but I want to restart this program tomorrow. I've been doing a Tuesday/Thursday/Saturday split, but since school is going to start I might as well use this as an opportunity to switch my workouts to Monday/ Wednesday/Friday. From reading a clarification and this thread, my plan would be to eat 4000 calories a day with as much of the gallon as needed to reach that number and to increase the squat/dead lift 10 lb each workout for the first 6 workouts, and then go by 5 lb until I can't any longer. As for the clean and two presses, I would go up by 5's every workout (I don't know how I'm going to be able to keep these up though, and I don't have any 1.25 lb weights for when the gains start to slow).

I really DON'T want to even try to pick a starting weight after what happened last time, I think I might just start with the bar for all of them and go for from there. If you have any suggestions on starting weights that would be really helpful (I realize this has been covered in the books and this board, but my guess is that those instances aren't unique to me).

Thank you

[dsp]

Go ahead and start a log here, it can be a massive amount of help. Also, I would probably limit the power cleans to practicing form with very light weight from the hang position (when you jump) after your workouts, and just deadlift on both days. It's very awkward to power clean with weights smaller than a plate (35's will be acceptable), and deadlifting alone will build your back strength enough to do some non-awkward power cleans. Deadlifting 3x a week at such light weights won't affect your recovery if you're eating enough.

[MikeC1]

It might be a good idea for you to lay off the weights for a while, and actually read Starting Strength first. What made you think it was a good idea to start your weights at the numbers in the strength standards in PP? At where you are, your strength and mass goals will improve as fast as your reading comprehension skills.

[Gonzalo]

Go ahead and start a log here, it can be a massive amount of help. Also, I would probably limit the power cleans to practicing form with very light weight from the hang position (when you jump) after your workouts, and just deadlift on both days. It's very awkward to power clean with weights smaller than a plate (35's will be acceptable), and deadlifting alone will build your back strength enough to do some non-awkward power cleans. Deadlifting 3x a week at such light weights won't affect your recovery if you're eating enough.

Ok, I'll do that! The dead lift idea sounds great as well, though I guess that would mean that it would progress as fast as the squat. I don't really know if that would be an issue, but I'd prefer to just replace the clean with the Pendlay row.

[Gonzalo]

It might be a good idea for you to lay off the weights for a while, and actually read Starting Strength first. What made you think it was a good idea to start your weights at the numbers in the strength standards in PP? At where you are, your strength and mass goals will improve as fast as your reading comprehension skills.

My reading comprehension is fine. If not, I'd misunderstand your message to be a condescending illusion of help instead of genuine constructive criticism. Oh wait.


I though the tables in practical programming where there as a guiding point to use as starting weights. I was seeing and reading what I wanted to read, not what was objectively on the page. Unfortunately, I had to learn that the hard way. It's fine though, because I realize that now and I can start fresh tomorrow using this board as a guide (or at least, as a nice, helpful way for feedback). [: