Recomp, for lack of a better word

[Nic Lane]

So maybe this is a stupid question, we'll see.

I'm, 43, currently about 210#, 5'10", have been training productively for a little less then 2 years. I squat 365x5, DL 355x5, Bench 200x3x5 and press 140x3x5 (upper body lifts on LP coming back from an injury last year). I figure I'm about 20% bf (Navy BCA method says 22%, BIA scale says 19%). I currently do some light conditioning. That's riding my bike to/from work a few days a week. It's about 30-35 minutes of moderate cardio. During nicer weather I ride almost every day and hit the prowler once a week using Matt Reynolds' protocol with a HR monitor.

I don't want to slow my strength gains at all right now so I've been eating a surplus, I usually get between 3200-4000 cals/day and hitting ~200g protein. Fat and carbs fall where they may.

I'd love to lower (or even maintain, but lower would be great) my current bf% - but like I said, I don't want to sacrifce strength gains. Things have been going pretty well lately and I don't want to screw it up.

Is this a realistic goal or am I doomed to keep gaining fat until I can't stand it and then cut?

Thanks!

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

You will be able to increase your strength and decrease your body fat levels if you get "serious" about your nutrition. Your conditioning looks okay, although I would likely make a few changes when chasing strength gains. How are you tracking your protein and cals? This will give me a better idea on what I'd recommend macro/cal/food wise. On the other hand, your strength gains will not be as fast as if you continued to gain weight, but they can still be made depending on your true level of advancement. Give me an idea of how you're organizing your training (weekly, monthly, etc.).

As an aside, if you're really interested in "getting strong" but don't want to gain any BF (relative to your LBM) then this is possible if you tighten up your nutrition to the correct level, which varies between individuals based on about a million things. This will probably be the most repetitive statement/argument on this new forum, but I've seen it over and over again: Hard-training lifters who have their nutrition on point will gain LBM (and bodyfat) but their BF will stay static relative to their LBM. There are obvious exceptions like the emaciated, the obese, etc. The fact of the matter is, most people will not do the things necessary to get their nutrition dialed-in to this level. Eating haphazardly (either too much or too little) leads to poor outcomes in both strength and body comp. Some people will be fine by making good choices and approximating their overall intake with their eyes and others will miss the mark and stall, get fat, or both.

I imagine over the course of more threads I'll expand on that thought but for now, tell me how you're organizing your training and how you're measuring/tracking your intake.

[Nic Lane]

Thanks Jordan.

I track nutrition with fitday. I weigh and measure the food I prepare, but if I eat out or my wife makes dinner, etc., I have to estimate the portion size for the major components of the meal.

My squat and deadlift are organized weekly on a Texas Method template (press and bench are on a slightly LP as I mentioned.) I'm considering switching squat and DL to a 5/3/1 template (keeping bench and press on LP until I can't keep it up any more) to get my heavy stes on separate days. I couldn't get a 360# DL off the ground last Tuesday after squatting 365. I think the two heavy lifts on the same day may be getting to be too much.

Ideally I'd like to continue getting strong without gaining bf relative to LBM. I know how to make strength gains while gaining some fat and I have successfully cut weight without losing a ton of strength - but it's that sweet spot of gaining strength without gaining bf relative to LBM where I struggle.

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

Okay, here is what I'd do with the information you've provided me AND given the fact you're keen on weighing/measuring stuff:

Macros: 275 (pro)/275 (cho)/100 (on low days...aka 5 days out of the week) and 240/425/90 (on high days like Mon/Thurs or Tues/Fri)

High days are reserved for days you're going heavy, and ideally they would be on days that you're deadlifting/squatting (if those are your two most "troublesome" lifts). You can rearrange this as your BP and Press increase and get harder, but I really like 3 days between carb ups. Aim to split up all the macros evenly across 4-5 meals a day with 3 hours minimum and 5 hours maximum between meals. Split about 60% of your carbohydrates in the meals immediately preceding and following your training and in these meals, aim for <10g of fat. What you eat will matter much less than HOW MUCH you're eating, but aim to get ~30-35g of fiber in a day and be within +/-5g of your macros. Finally, use pictures and tape measure around your umbilicus to be your guide. Do this for two weeks and then report back and let's see what we need to modify, if anything.

My approach would be much different if you weren't weighing/measuring, but since you are let's start here.

[Milo's Ghost]

What is the thinking behind the relatively low fat % in the diet? Is this specific to strength training athletes? Or is it just where the fat grams end up given total kcal target and requirements for protein and carbs?

And why keep fat <10g during the pre- and post-workout meals? To speed up the assimilation of the carbs and protein, i.e. replace glycogen (the carbs) and return to an anabolic state (the protein) more quickly? Or to heighten the insulin response, promoting growth?

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

What is the thinking behind the relatively low fat % in the diet? Is this specific to strength training athletes? Or is it just where the fat grams end up given total kcal target and requirements for protein and carbs?

And why keep fat <10g during the pre- and post-workout meals? To speed up the assimilation of the carbs and protein, i.e. replace glycogen (the carbs) and return to an anabolic state (the protein) more quickly? Or to heighten the insulin response, promoting growth?

In this example of a diet, fat is about 30% of dietary calories, which is not low unless being compared to a keto style diet in my opinion. I prefer a little more carbs in strength athletes (and physique competitors) in order to help fuel high intensity training sessions, recovery, and when it comes time to start tweaking the diet I have leeway with the carbs.

I like to keep the fat low in the periworkout window for a number of reasons: 1) fat slows gut transit time. I want the glucose to be ready for use (pre workout) or being used for recovery (post) and not hanging out there for hours on end. The insulin response is kinda less important than we've been hearing about, in my opinion, as heavy resistance training promotes insulin-independent glucose transport post workout. So as long as fat doesn't slow down the absorption/digestion of your protein and carbs you can get some pretty cool nutrient partitioning effects. 2) I like having some calories in reserve at other times of the day to boost compliance. Since the meals around the workout have a higher carb count and lower fat count than presumably the rest of the meals, that means that meals outside this window will likely have less carbs but MORE FAT, thereby promoting a bit of satiety (along with the protein) and increased compliance bc they're not just eating a chicken breast and broccoli.

[Nic Lane]

Ha, well, I don't have it in me. At least not the hitting macros within +/-5g and maintaining <10g fat or hitting ~60% of daily carbs peri-workout. I was single and only ate at home, maybe... but that kind of dedicated precision isn't something I want to force my lifestyle around at this point.

BUT, I'm assuming those instructions were to maximize lean mass over fat as I continue to gain weight and get stronger.

What I can do (and have been doing consistently) is hit total calorie and protein targets. And I can weigh the balance of calories on a given day toward carbs or fat while ensuring I get higher carbs around workouts. If I do that, shooting for ~3100 cal 5 days/wk and ~3500 cal 2 days/week on heavy training days do you reckon I'll skew (if not optimize) my growth toward lean mass?

Cheers,
Nic

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

If I do that, shooting for ~3100 cal 5 days/wk and ~3500 cal 2 days/week on heavy training days do you reckon I'll skew (if not optimize) my growth toward lean mass?

Cheers,
Nic

No worries, Nic. I know this stuff isn't for everyone although I do find it to be brutally effective. In this case, I'd have you aim for 275g of protein and about 3100 cals 5 days a week. Keep your protein sources lean, add 2 servings-ish (~60g) of carbs pre and post workout and keep any added fat (nuts, nut butters, oils, fatty protein sources) constrained to the other meals, if possible. The other 2 days will be have lower protein, 230g, higher cals (3500), and pretty much all of those extra cals would be coming from carbs. I'd initially put those high calorie days on my heavy days, but then I'd play around with putting them the day before a heavy day. I tend to personally like having a high calorie/high carb day before a heavy training day.

[Nic Lane]

Nice, thanks for the additional thoughts. And thanks again for the initial, more detailed, instructions. I'll shift my eating patterns with the basic template as the goal, and keep the additional precision as a stretch target.

[Milo's Ghost]

In this example of a diet, fat is about 30% of dietary calories, which is not low unless being compared to a keto style diet in my opinion. I prefer a little more carbs in strength athletes (and physique competitors) in order to help fuel high intensity training sessions, recovery, and when it comes time to start tweaking the diet I have leeway with the carbs.

I like to keep the fat low in the periworkout window for a number of reasons: 1) fat slows gut transit time. I want the glucose to be ready for use (pre workout) or being used for recovery (post) and not hanging out there for hours on end. The insulin response is kinda less important than we've been hearing about, in my opinion, as heavy resistance training promotes insulin-independent glucose transport post workout. So as long as fat doesn't slow down the absorption/digestion of your protein and carbs you can get some pretty cool nutrient partitioning effects. 2) I like having some calories in reserve at other times of the day to boost compliance. Since the meals around the workout have a higher carb count and lower fat count than presumably the rest of the meals, that means that meals outside this window will likely have less carbs but MORE FAT, thereby promoting a bit of satiety (along with the protein) and increased compliance bc they're not just eating a chicken breast and broccoli.

Yeah, and your protein rec is on the higher end of what I've seen, so it's not a 'low-fat' diet, but it's below, say, what I would recommend for a non-trainee who needed to drop 20 lbs or so. One of the things I'm trying to think through in general is how serious strength training (I don't mean a competitive lifter, just not somebody who does mostly machines, etc.) affects carb partitioning, requirements, body comp, etc.

That make sense about limiting fat pre- and post-workout to get the good stuff (carbs/protein) put to use as quickly as possible. As for insulin-independent glucose transport being affected by training, do you have recommendations on anything I could read on that?

As far as numbers go, you mentioned >10g fat, but I'm assuming that's not a hard and fast number? I like to chug 20 oz. milk before and another 20 oz. after (w/protein powder) my workouts. I may add a starch post-workout to get some more carbs in during the window, but for now, that's it.