Forks over knives

[caveman]

I was wondering if you've seen this documentary. I recently had references to this movie come up in three different unrelated occassions and took that as the universe's way of telling me I should watch this.

The basic premise is that a whole food plant based diet is much healther for humans than the typical Western diet. The movie made enough compelling points that I'll be doing some more research on what a balanced vegetarian/vegan diet would look like. Just wondering what your thoughts were on the movie, if you've seen it. And what your thoughts are on vegetarian and/or vegan diets for people that still want to be strong.

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

I've seen the documentary and it was pretty interesting, although it mostly panders to the Convention Wisdom, e.g. fat makes you fat, red meat is bad, don't eat cholesterol-rich foods, etc. The idea of eliminating processed foods seems like a good way to roll in my opinion, although I don't agree with cutting out meat. The idea that the proteins in plants are equal to the proteins in meat is incorrect and in addition, the idea that the nutrients and vitamins that plants are rich in are very bioavailable (or even moderately so) is also incorrect. There are many things in this documentary that are scientifically wrong or inaccurate, but a similar bias shows up in other work for the opposite argument.

On the other hand, I'll go on record and say that I think vegetarian/vegan diets are healthier than the standard American diet with the caveat that it's supplemented appropriately (B12, some iron help, and taking care of high homocysteine levels). That being said, the pro-inflammatory nature of typical vegetarian and vegan diets along with the inherent deficiencies (and elevated homocysteine levels) makes it pretty unreasonable as being the "optimal" diet. I think raw vegans get one step closer, but still run into the same issues as other vegans/vegetarians.

If you're interested in getting really strong while leaning towards ultimate health, I think you'd be well served to follow a whole-foods based diet, based on grass-fed (and finished) meats, wild caught fish, fresh vegetables and produce, and other single-ingredient foods like rice, tubers, etc. and clean water. Campbell's biggest work, The China Study, has been reamed, rebuked, and spit out so many times that I'm not going to waste any bandwidth talking about it. A simple google search will result in plenty of information on this topic.

[caveman]

If you're interested in getting really strong while leaning towards ultimate health, I think you'd be well served to follow a whole-foods based diet, based on grass-fed (and finished) meats, wild caught fish, fresh vegetables and produce, and other single-ingredient foods like rice, tubers, etc. and clean water.

This approach makes the most sense to me. Moderation and diversification work well in so many areas of life.

Thanks for your input. It is appreciated.

[spacediver]

Campbell's biggest work, The China Study, has been reamed, rebuked, and spit out so many times that I'm not going to waste any bandwidth talking about it. A simple google search will result in plenty of information on this topic.

true that. In particular, you'll want to read denise minger's heroic responses.

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

true that. In particular, you'll want to read denise minger's heroic responses.

I remember reading that...she did a number on him and from what I remember, it only took her a few weeks to write up that blog post totally dismembering his entire work. Honestly, I keep increasing the volume of studies and editorials I ready but I am very concerned about the legitimacy and accuracy of the stuff I'm shoving into my brain.

[caveman]

I should state up front that I am defending neither position, but I found this while trying to find Denise Minger's blog.
http://www.tcolincampbell.org/filead...ercritique.pdf

I also found it interesting that a silverback gorilla's diet is less than a few percent animal protein (i.e. insects and bugs).

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

I should state up front that I am defending neither position, but I found this while trying to find Denise Minger's blog.
http://www.tcolincampbell.org/filead...ercritique.pdf

I also found it interesting that a silverback gorilla's diet is less than a few percent animal protein (i.e. insects and bugs).

Yes, the rebuttals back and forth have been going on for awhile now. Frankly, I lost interest in the subject because there are fundamental flaws in each supposed claim for going vegetarian. At any rate, I do think if someone really wants to know about all of this he or she should read the available literature and check out some of the more well-informed blogs out there and then make their own decision.

Per the gorilla comment: thankfully after comparative anatomy (and a master's in anatomy and physiology) I can tackle this one briefly and concisely. In humans, our small intestine is about 6m long give or take, and the large intestine is about 1.5m. The small intestine, in humans, represents 55-67% of the GI tract's length and the colon is about 17-23%. In chimps, orangutangs, and gorillas, their large intestines are much longer and represent over half of the GI tract's length. This difference in GI tract anatomy is important to the relative functions, as gorillas, chimps, and orangutangs can generate more energy from short chain fatty acids and fibrous carbohydrates, which do not represent a very large source of available calories in humans. In short, we have different anatomy, different functions, and this is part of the expensive tissue hypothesis.

[tzanghi]

... the idea that the nutrients and vitamins that plants are rich in are very bioavailable (or even moderately so) is also incorrect.

Holy shit. So it's really not that big of a deal to skip veggies at dinner? I suppose you still need fiber to pass things through, and I do like some vegetables cooked right, but that's very interesting to me because that seemed to be the one thing people could agree on. If you don't mind my asking, how is the bioavailability of vitamins and nutrients in meats?

[hatmanii]

WHAT?! My fucking gorilla diet and monkey bar training program isn't going to get me jacked? WTF, dude? Way to ruin my Christmas.

[caveman]

Good stuff Jordan. Thanks for all the info.