Good Morning Musings

[Kundahli]

In the good morning could one move the bar position to the low bar position? I understand this would reduce the moment arm but wouldn't it also increase the safety of the lift? Assuming one doesnt drop below parallel the bar should be locked into place.

On this topic, in my view the GM mimics the position of a deficit DL, although the bar position changes the body position remains the same keeping the force transmission from the floor up the posterior chain to move the weight the same as the DL with a greater ROM.

With this being said, you have mentioned that the lifts that get your strongest are not necessarily the ones that allow you to lift the most weight but that move the most muscle mass through the greatest ROM. In this sense, as the GM (or deficit DL) increase the ROM relative to a conventional DL, could they be trained as primer drivers of DL strength? say for moderate to heavy 5s

Just some things running through my head. Id like to hear your thoughts

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

Have you ever done good mornings? The lifts that get you strongest are a compromise between most muscle mass, most effective range of motion, and most force production. The conventional deadlift trounces the gm and deficit pull when taking all these into consideration. The gm and deficit pull are good movements for more advanced lifters or those with certain restrictions, however.

From my experience though, it's pretty difficult to do the gm in a low bar position because the bar rolls up your back. I've always had to do them high bar or with a speciality bar.

[Orphan]

I hear what you're saying Jordan but the plate diameter, and thus the starting position of the bar is arbitrary, and the set-up varies person to person, providing a slightly different training effect to each trainee. Why is that the perfect height to pull a bar from for all people? Why not somewhere a few inches either way? Pulling from a deficit uses the leg extensors through a greater ROM and many people can pull quite a bit from a deficit. That fits your criteria very well. Someone with very short arms may benefit from rack pulls because it is equivalent to a DL off the floor for another trainee with longer arms, etc.

[hamburgerfan]

You can carry a cambered bar lower on your back for a good morning without it rolling up your back.

Heavy good mornings and speed deadlifts are much more effective for driving up my deadlift strength than heavy deadlifts are. Others may have different results.

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

I hear what you're saying Jordan but the plate diameter, and thus the starting position of the bar is arbitrary, and the set-up varies person to person, providing a slightly different training effect to each trainee. Why is that the perfect height to pull a bar from for all people? Why not somewhere a few inches either way? Pulling from a deficit uses the leg extensors through a greater ROM and many people can pull quite a bit from a deficit. That fits your criteria very well. Someone with very short arms may benefit from rack pulls because it is equivalent to a DL off the floor for another trainee with longer arms, etc.

It's certainly possible, but this hasn't been my experience personally or professionally. Also, the flexibility required to obtain a proper start position in a deficit pull and the variability in rack pull technique do not lend themselves very well to main, staple movements for novices. I've used both personally and they do drive strength gains for sure but I'd only allow them with a lifter further along the line in their progression.

You can carry a cambered bar lower on your back for a good morning without it rolling up your back.

Heavy good mornings and speed deadlifts are much more effective for driving up my deadlift strength than heavy deadlifts are. Others may have different results.

Yes, a cambered bar works too. I haven't had much luck with heavy GM's driving up my DL but speed deads and heavy power cleans can work well provided the technique is correct. They're good for more advanced lifters too at certain points.

[Kundahli]

Thanks for all the responses.

I agree with heavy PCs pulling your DL up but I find with GMs I get much more lower back and hamstring contraction.

As far as bar position I havent had much of a problem with the bar rolling up my back. Maybe this is a technique thing (or a weight thing, I only do them at 135 for 8s after DL singles) but as long as you pin the bar to your back and dont drop your back below horizontal (only reach it) the bar should stay in place.

Im all for heavy deads but I find my back becoming a limiting factor as the weight continues to rise.

Ive moved to keeping my DLs at three to five singles (focusing on tight form) and then using the GM for added volume (3x8s). What I am debating doing is treating the GM more like a main lift (3x5s) rather than an accessory lift. If I were to do this, what would the Staff Coaches or Rip recommend as a rep and set range? Thanks

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

The "contraction" you feel doesn't necessarily mean it's doing anything useful with regards to strength. Conversely, it doesn't mean it's not doing anything useful either. The bar will roll when the weight gets heavy enough to actually drive your DL unless you have some specialty bars. Your back will always be a factor as the deadlift weight continues to rise, as that's kind of the point of the training the pull. Speaking of which, what are your current squat and deadlift working weights?

As for rec's on rep ranges, we wouldn't recommend them as a main lift. If you want to do Westside and use really heavy GMs as a main exercise then follow their template, i.e. max effort work based off Prilepin's chart for volume. If you had a TM-type setup, I would just do them for a single heavy set of 5-8 reps at the end of the workout.

[Kundahli]

Thanks.

I'll stick with them as accessory for 8s as you advise.

Working weights are currently 315 High Bar BS 385 DL. No, I'm not doing the program. I I do appreciate the knowledge base of this community however.

In my DL, on heavy singles, my hips will rise before my back putting me in an Stiff legged position and if I fail the lift its because I couldn't break it off the floor.

I was trying to use GM to strengthen the back and hanmies to prevent this if you have suggestions I'd appreciate it

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

I'd rotate back to 5's on DL's or do some back off sets to get your pull stronger. At some weight, perhaps one that represents something challenging for your current level of strength and technique prowess, your form will break down and the weight won't go up. The obvious answer is to improve both. Goodmornings can increase strength, but I don't think they're the best option in your case.

[Steve Hill]

My thoughts:

1) OP does HBBS. HBBS moves squat loading from hamstrings to quadriceps.
2) OP has a problem with maintaining back angle on DL. Class:
Q1: What is the initial movement off the floor on a DL? A: Knee (quadriceps) extension.
Q2: What is the cause of failure to maintain back angle in a DL? A: Hamstrings fail to maintain back angle.
3) OP wants to perform an assistance exercise to strengthen hamstrings.

Hmmm. What's wrong with this picture? I can't quite put my finger on it...

If only there was a way to get squats in, and at the same time strengthen the hamstrings. If ONLY.