The sliding knees problem (squat check)...

[Tom Lang]

See:

http://youtu.be/mwC2Xz-DLoY

My knees slide continuously forward, no matter how hard I concentrate on shoving my knees out (and push them forward near the top--see rep 4 or 5, I kind of pause when I do so) or visualize the Master Cue. TUBOW has not been as helpful as I hoped, since I find it distracting, especially after a couple of coaching sessions with SSC Michael Street. My quad insertions are continuously sore (not origins, insertions above my knees). This is really effing frustrating. Although I must say, these are better than they were--I used to do this nasty darting motion forward at the bottom.

This is a very light set, in fact the fourth out of four today. This last set I really felt my hams and adductors more, but fuck.

I suspect I may be on my heels too much, and when I hit bottom, the balance naturally puts more weight forward, thus my knees move.

You can't see my eye gaze in this video, but it's usually like this:

http://youtu.be/YE6Ybe4p-dA

These squats aren't actually that bad (and they're 50lbs heavier), but again, the knees.


I appreciate the comments, and thanks for looking.

[Steve Hill]

My knees slide continuously forward, no matter how hard I concentrate on shoving my knees out (and push them forward near the top--see rep 4 or 5, I kind of pause when I do so) or visualize the Master Cue. TUBOW has not been as helpful as I hoped, since I find it distracting, especially after a couple of coaching sessions with SSC Michael Street.

Watch your first video: there's a point at which you try to stop your knee, but then in your continued descent you allow it to move forward. You end up in a high bar squat at the bottom. This is because you do not sit back and bend over more. Only you can prevent forest fires. TUBOW is useful for this, but only if you know how to use it - primarily, you have to put it in the right place.

The "Master cue" does no good whatsoever if one simply squats and tries to maintain a vertical back, as you are doing.

[Tom Lang]

Watch your first video: there's a point at which you try to stop your knee, but then in your continued descent you allow it to move forward. You end up in a high bar squat at the bottom. This is because you do not sit back and bend over more. Only you can prevent forest fires. TUBOW is useful for this, but only if you know how to use it - primarily, you have to put it in the right place.

The "Master cue" does no good whatsoever if one simply squats and tries to maintain a vertical back, as you are doing.

You're getting at the crux of my problem. Part of what I learned with Michael Street is that I have a long torso relative to my legs, hence I will always be more upright than others, even when doing a low-bar squat. Before my first coaching session with him, I tried and tried to "lean over more." My eye gaze was fucked up (looking almost straight down). The first thing he did was fix my gaze, then draw the pictures on the white board explaining my anthropometry compared to the "average" textbook anthropometry, using the standard SS diagnostic angles.

As we progressed, we worked on gaze, balancing the weight over the middle of my foot, and shoving my goddamned knees out. Never was I told to "lean over more." I was, however, told to sit back, and to think about my hips, which actually did generate some hip drive.

I'm not trying to maintain a vertical back, I'm trying shove my knees out, keep them stable, hit depth, and drive up with my hips, and keep the bar balanced over the middle of my foot. It's my understanding that if I do that, my back will find the angle at which it needs to be.

Here's a Kinovea treatment of the second video (above). It's not shot directly side-on, just a little forward. It appears that the bar is just a little behind the middle of my foot. The only way I can get it forward is a little more lean--am I correct? Will I feel more weight towards the front of my foot, and more tension in my calves?

http://youtu.be/1pZGDlt0Cfk

Thank you, Steve.

[Steve Hill]

You're getting at the crux of my problem. Part of what I learned with Michael Street is that I have a long torso relative to my legs, hence I will always be more upright than others, even when doing a low-bar squat. Before my first coaching session with him, I tried and tried to "lean over more." My eye gaze was fucked up (looking almost straight down). The first thing he did was fix my gaze, then draw the pictures on the white board explaining my anthropometry compared to the "average" textbook anthropometry, using the standard SS diagnostic angles.

As we progressed, we worked on gaze, balancing the weight over the middle of my foot, and shoving my goddamned knees out. Never was I told to "lean over more." I was, however, told to sit back, and to think about my hips, which actually did generate some hip drive.

I'm not trying to maintain a vertical back, I'm trying shove my knees out, keep them stable, hit depth, and drive up with my hips, and keep the bar balanced over the middle of my foot. It's my understanding that if I do that, my back will find the angle at which it needs to be.

Once the knees stop moving (or at the point they should stop moving) you have two choices: either sit back and lean over more, or the knees continue forward. That's it. There are no other options. When you sit back, you have to lean over to keep the bar over the middle of the foot. It's impossible to do otherwise. If you do not lean over more, you can't sit back, and then your knees will continue travelling forward, as yours are doing. So yes, you need to stop your knees travelling forward, and sit back, AND bend over more. I'm not saying a lot, but more than what you are doing. Otherwise, your knees can't stop travelling forward.

Can you see this now?

[Steve Hill]

Good catch on the pants. Usually, with non-stretchy pants / shorts, the issue we see is a depth issue, but I won't write off that they may be doing other things.

[Michael Wolf]

Also, you might want to check out my thread where Wolf has been helping me. I had(have, really ) the same issue with my knees moving forward all the way to the bottom of the rep, and some of the cues or fixes might be useful for you.

one of the best ones was "knees first" for me. Might be useful.

Thanks for the plug. I'll add that upon returning from a recent low back muscle pull, I too fell into this knee slide habit. I train by myself and didn't notice it at first, but when I did, I had a bit of trouble shaking it. I was a bit surprised by this, as I had this issue when I first learned to low bar squat as well, having done high bar squats exclusively for years prior to learning the LBBS, and at that time, was able to coach myself out of it, but it was giving me more trouble this time around.

Whose help did I enlist to get rid of it this time around? Steve Hill. I'd say the OP is in good hands.

I've noticed that a large percentage of the form checks we've had on the Staff Q&A thus far have shown knee slide issues. It's a pretty common issue, so feel free to look around at the other threads here and you might find another cue or piece of advice that resonates and clicks for you. A few that I've been the primary responder for that I can think of off the top of my head are the ones started by hsilman, OCG, and PunchSlap.

[Tom Lang]

Once the knees stop moving (or at the point they should stop moving) you have two choices: either sit back and lean over more, or the knees continue forward. That's it. There are no other options. When you sit back, you have to lean over to keep the bar over the middle of the foot. It's impossible to do otherwise. If you do not lean over more, you can't sit back, and then your knees will continue travelling forward, as yours are doing. So yes, you need to stop your knees travelling forward, and sit back, AND bend over more. I'm not saying a lot, but more than what you are doing. Otherwise, your knees can't stop travelling forward.

That's very clear. In fact, it's the first time I've seen this explained this way. Rip treats the problem pretty well in The Book, but your explanation (either sit back and lean over, or have moving knees) sums it up.

I squat again tomorrow--I'll shoot more vid. Am I correct in thinking that I'll feel more weight towards the front of my foot, and more tension in my calves? I'll also adjust my gaze downward more. The gaze cue helped me before.

Can you see this now?

this might sound strange, but have you tried squatting in shorts?

I find if I squat in windbreakers, it can mess with my technique because the fabric isn't stretchy enough and it pulls on my legs in different ways. mostly, I feel it "pulling my knees back" and the bottom slides up. Just a side thought.

Also, you might want to check out my thread where Wolf has been helping me. I had(have, really ) the same issue with my knees moving forward all the way to the bottom of the rep, and some of the cues or fixes might be useful for you.

one of the best ones was "knees first" for me. Might be useful.

Those pants are extremely loose, and just thin cotton. I don't notice them at all. But I can see how pants could be a factor. I think "knees first," too. As Steve pointed out in my first video, I attempt to do so, but then slide on as usual. I'll definitely check out your Wolf thread.

Thanks for the help, all. I know I'm getting closer.

[Tom Lang]

Better? See the difference between the first and second videos.

http://youtu.be/rVGmcDafH_I

http://youtu.be/5JLvYhiemjY


I started with some sets at 175 lbs (as in the first video in this thread), and when I saw improvement, I added 40 lbs. I shot the first set (first vid), saw my problems, then shot what you see in the second. My cues were Knees! Hips! And I adjusted my gaze a little closer.

Now I notice that my knees move back a little as I come out of the hole, which means I'm moving my ass back instead of up.

But otherwise, I feel really good about these.

[Tom Campitelli]

Bumping this up for myself or others.

[Steve Hill]

Yes. Much better.

Now, work on making the top 1/3 of the movement coordinated. Compare most of the other reps with the 3rd rep of the 2nd posted set. That rep is probably the best.