Is shoulder abduction an important movement to train?

[Paul1]

The press and bench press train basically the exact same shoulder / upper arm mechanics, but the bench stops perpendicular to the chest and the press stops overhead. So its ROM is greater and its lockout involves engaging the upper back. But with both lifts the primary shoulder movement is extension.

Neither movement involves much abduction of the shoulders, which is normally trained with things like lateral raises and upright rows. Is this movement just not important to train?

[Andy Baker (KSC)]

Its not important as far as strength goes.....but I will say this.....if your concern is physique, your shoulders will take on a different look with the inclusion of lateral raises, but I have never found that they contribute in any way to pressing strength.

[Paul1]

My physique is so unbelievably amazing that I'm not really concerned about that.

I was just thinking about this in the context of shoulder health, i.e. the importance of training the press in addition to the bench, as Mark articulates very effectively. But both are basically anterior deltoid movements.

When I've been staying at a hotel with just dumbbells, I find that I hold a dumbbell press quite a bit wider than I hold the bar for barbell presses -- and abduction / engagement of middle delts is therefore more integral to that movement. It couldn't really be imitated with a wide grip press, because the hands wouldn't end up close together at lockout.

[Dave Longley]

Its not important as far as strength goes.....but I will say this.....if your concern is physique, your shoulders will take on a different look with the inclusion of lateral raises, but I have never found that they contribute in any way to pressing strength.

Do they impede on the press/bench press in any way?

[Paul1]

When I've been staying at a hotel with just dumbbells, I find that I hold a dumbbell press quite a bit wider than I hold the bar for barbell presses -- and abduction / engagement of middle delts is therefore more integral to that movement. It couldn't really be imitated with a wide grip press, because the hands wouldn't end up close together at lockout.

Now that I think about it, a wide dumbbell press wouldn't be engaging middle deltoids either once the arms are above 90 degrees, it would all be supraspinatus at that point right?

[Andy Baker (KSC)]

My physique is so unbelievably amazing that I'm not really concerned about that.

I was just thinking about this in the context of shoulder health, i.e. the importance of training the press in addition to the bench, as Mark articulates very effectively. But both are basically anterior deltoid movements.

When I've been staying at a hotel with just dumbbells, I find that I hold a dumbbell press quite a bit wider than I hold the bar for barbell presses -- and abduction / engagement of middle delts is therefore more integral to that movement. It couldn't really be imitated with a wide grip press, because the hands wouldn't end up close together at lockout.

I'm glad to hear about your physique. I was worried sick that your shoulder width might be out of balance with the sweep of your quads....

Shoulder health......Presses are it. Seriously....i've rehabbed a bunch of swimmers with presses. All my clients press, I press, and nobody from age 15 to age 75 has any shoulder pains. Its just anecdotal, but nobody here does lateral raises.....(except me on rare occasions).

Side Delts/Presses.....depending on how you hold the dumbbells you will get a little more side delt with them than you will with our model of pressing. Behind the Neck presses do a good job of hitting the side delts if your shoulders can handle it.

Now......I'm afraid if I talk anymore about side delts I am going to be banned from the boards for life and lose my SSC designation.

[Andy Baker (KSC)]

Do they impede on the press/bench press in any way?

Depends on the type of program you are on....frequency of the barbell lifts, etc. They are a useless exercise for most.

[Tom Campitelli]

I'm glad to hear about your physique. I was worried sick that your shoulder width might be out of balance with the sweep of your quads....

This was good. Many chuckles.

[Paul1]

Andy, forget my striated side delts, you should see the separation I've achieved between my glutes.

For swimmers do you focus on volume, i.e. 5x5s and 5RMs, rather than higher intensity / lower volume? As a former swimmer it seems to make sense given the number of 'reps' involved in the sport.

[Les Hahn]

Andy (or anyone else), what do you do for guys that already have a bad shoulder? I have some mild to moderate pain when pressing heavy, and moderate pain while benching. I've taken a closer grip for both lifts, and now my press grip is set at the pointer finger on the edge of the knurling. This is a very close grip for me given my shoulder width. Both exercises still hurt when I go moderately heavy.

I'm still able to gut it out, so maybe a cortisone shot is the way to go? I have some vids on my Youtube channel, but none of them were shot for form checks. I can post a couple if you want to see them. Otherwise, what else can I do?