Into the Great Wide Open: The Texas Method and 5/3/1

[bw.o.d.]

So I was just reading through the thread and thought I'd put in my two cents....

Firstly, I was a 5/3/1 disciple for probably 6 years. 6 YEARS! My powerlifting total went from about 600kg (1320lbs) @74kg bodyweight to about 600kg (1320lbs) @74kg bodyweight in that time. How dumb is that?? Regardless, 5/3/1 always had me hooked for several reasons:
1. IT WAS EASY! My God, doing ONE hard/heavy set per workout, followed my various assistance/supplemental movements (but don't push those too hard or you'll burn out!) - how great is that??
2. Being a true disciple, I totally bought into everything Wendler preached regarding volume and being very careful not to do TOO MUCH, and this made moving on to any other type of program was impossible, since every other program requires MORE WORK. If 5/3/1 is the ideal amount of volume (I know somewhere he's said that the amount of volume is not necessarily ideal, but he has said A LOT in all the books that you should be VERY CAREFUL about adding in more that is prescribed - seriously, don't fight me on this), then how can I possibly move on to something that requires me to do MORE???
3. 5/3/1 keeps giving you glimmers of hope. Maybe once or twice per cycle I'd hit, not a PB, but maybe a number of reps on a main movement that I'd not done in a while. This made me instantly think "Things are moving in the right direction!", and that would keep me going onto yet another cycle.
4. 5/3/1 always churns out fun variations that you can try for 6/12/20 weeks. So if you're bored or making no progress, just pick another variation and run with that one! I've got no idea how many variations/challenges 5/3/1 has thrown out, but in could well be into the hundreds (BBB, the monolith, 5/3/1 for powerlifting, beach body challenge, prowler challenge, Simplest Training Template, etc, etc, etc).

Finally I adjusted my training to incorporate some of the principles of SS and guess what happened? My total actually went up. My next meet I totalled 617.5kg (a 17.5kg PB) @74kg bodyweight. Then I messed my back up several times, and finally SSOC was launched and I jumped straight in. I was lucky enough to hook up with the good doctor Austin Baraki, and since then my total (as of last month and with 6 months' training under Austin) my total is 662.5kg with room to spare. I've been training since I was 15, and I'm 31 now, and I just put 45kg on my total in 6 months. I've never experienced that kind of progress. I'm squatting 2-3 times per week, deadlifting 2-3 times per week, benching 3-4 times per week and IT IS HARD. But it works and I can never go back now.

And on the point regarding lifters that have used 5/3/1 with success, I followed the lifters from EliteFTS since I started powerlifting in about 2008, so I'd like to add my two cents here too (thinking about it, it's a little embarrassing that I can recall all this info, but I digress):

Vincent Dizenzo was a 600lb bencher way before he used 5/3/1. He used conjugate training to get there, and then used modified 5/3/1 to retain that bench. Since dropping all the bodyweight his bench is 440lb as of now (using 5/3/1 - albeit with a huge drop in bodyweight over the last 7 or 8 years). Now this guy has decades of training behind him and there is NO WAY anyone can attribute his strength level to his current 5/3/1 programming.
Matt Rhodes has lifted ridiculously light weights for the past few years, ever since he retired from powerlifting (which, coincidentally is around the time he started using 5/3/1), weights that any novice can surpass in a few months, so I wouldn't get too excited about his successful use of 5/3/1 either.
Jim Wendler was an elite geared powerlifting pre-5/3/1 and got there using the conjugate method as well, NOT 5/3/1. He had a hell of a base to work with and I don't think his strength level at and time can be attributed to 5/3/1.

There are other good lifters that have had a go at using 5/3/1, but it never lasts because they don't progress.

No advanced lifter uses 5/3/1. NOT ONE.

Look, I loved 5/3/1 for a long time. I used it for a long time and I made zero progress. I had myself convinced that I was come kind of super-advanced lifter and I'd just reached my genetic potential, but I'm happy to say that that time has passed. I'm training hard and making progress, something I would not be doing had I continued down the 5/3/1 path. 5/3/1 may be fine for people who just aren't that concerned with making real progress, or who just want to go into the gym and feel like they've accomplished something, but it absolutely IS NOT optimal and any progress you make will be limited and will not last. Seriously, I'm speaking from experience (far too much, unfortunately).

[John Helton]

Thanks, bw.o.d. That was a very useful. I started down the 5/3/1 path about a week ago and have just abandoned it. I read Jordan's article, plus it didn't feel right from both a volume and intensity standpoint. Your post has me feeling very good about the decision to go a different direction. I'm also not even more interested in SSOC. I've just started 4-day TM Split.

[Cmmm]

So I was just reading through the thread and thought I'd put in my two cents....

Firstly, I was a 5/3/1 disciple for probably 6 years. 6 YEARS! My powerlifting total went from about 600kg (1320lbs) @74kg bodyweight to about 600kg (1320lbs) @74kg bodyweight in that time. How dumb is that?? Regardless, 5/3/1 always had me hooked for several reasons:
1. IT WAS EASY! My God, doing ONE hard/heavy set per workout, followed my various assistance/supplemental movements (but don't push those too hard or you'll burn out!) - how great is that??
2. Being a true disciple, I totally bought into everything Wendler preached regarding volume and being very careful not to do TOO MUCH, and this made moving on to any other type of program was impossible, since every other program requires MORE WORK. If 5/3/1 is the ideal amount of volume (I know somewhere he's said that the amount of volume is not necessarily ideal, but he has said A LOT in all the books that you should be VERY CAREFUL about adding in more that is prescribed - seriously, don't fight me on this), then how can I possibly move on to something that requires me to do MORE???
3. 5/3/1 keeps giving you glimmers of hope. Maybe once or twice per cycle I'd hit, not a PB, but maybe a number of reps on a main movement that I'd not done in a while. This made me instantly think "Things are moving in the right direction!", and that would keep me going onto yet another cycle.
4. 5/3/1 always churns out fun variations that you can try for 6/12/20 weeks. So if you're bored or making no progress, just pick another variation and run with that one! I've got no idea how many variations/challenges 5/3/1 has thrown out, but in could well be into the hundreds (BBB, the monolith, 5/3/1 for powerlifting, beach body challenge, prowler challenge, Simplest Training Template, etc, etc, etc).

Finally I adjusted my training to incorporate some of the principles of SS and guess what happened? My total actually went up. My next meet I totalled 617.5kg (a 17.5kg PB) @74kg bodyweight. Then I messed my back up several times, and finally SSOC was launched and I jumped straight in. I was lucky enough to hook up with the good doctor Austin Baraki, and since then my total (as of last month and with 6 months' training under Austin) my total is 662.5kg with room to spare. I've been training since I was 15, and I'm 31 now, and I just put 45kg on my total in 6 months. I've never experienced that kind of progress. I'm squatting 2-3 times per week, deadlifting 2-3 times per week, benching 3-4 times per week and IT IS HARD. But it works and I can never go back now.

And on the point regarding lifters that have used 5/3/1 with success, I followed the lifters from EliteFTS since I started powerlifting in about 2008, so I'd like to add my two cents here too (thinking about it, it's a little embarrassing that I can recall all this info, but I digress):

Vincent Dizenzo was a 600lb bencher way before he used 5/3/1. He used conjugate training to get there, and then used modified 5/3/1 to retain that bench. Since dropping all the bodyweight his bench is 440lb as of now (using 5/3/1 - albeit with a huge drop in bodyweight over the last 7 or 8 years). Now this guy has decades of training behind him and there is NO WAY anyone can attribute his strength level to his current 5/3/1 programming.
Matt Rhodes has lifted ridiculously light weights for the past few years, ever since he retired from powerlifting (which, coincidentally is around the time he started using 5/3/1), weights that any novice can surpass in a few months, so I wouldn't get too excited about his successful use of 5/3/1 either.
Jim Wendler was an elite geared powerlifting pre-5/3/1 and got there using the conjugate method as well, NOT 5/3/1. He had a hell of a base to work with and I don't think his strength level at and time can be attributed to 5/3/1.

There are other good lifters that have had a go at using 5/3/1, but it never lasts because they don't progress.

No advanced lifter uses 5/3/1. NOT ONE.

Look, I loved 5/3/1 for a long time. I used it for a long time and I made zero progress. I had myself convinced that I was come kind of super-advanced lifter and I'd just reached my genetic potential, but I'm happy to say that that time has passed. I'm training hard and making progress, something I would not be doing had I continued down the 5/3/1 path. 5/3/1 may be fine for people who just aren't that concerned with making real progress, or who just want to go into the gym and feel like they've accomplished something, but it absolutely IS NOT optimal and any progress you make will be limited and will not last. Seriously, I'm speaking from experience (far too much, unfortunately).

Wow. 6 years. I feel bad for you. Seriously. What programs did you do in that time?

But, the claim that nobody advanced uses 5/3/1 is not true.

Rhodes, Vincent and Jim did build their strength with other methods, but no one of these guys trains for max. strength anymore. They have other goals, which they reach by different programs within 5/3/1.

But there are many advanced guys who have build strength with 5/3/1. In the Tnation are bunch of people who have gotten stronger with 5/3/1. Some examples are nicks "Pwinisher" or something and MarkkO.
In Wendlers private forums are many successful lifters too, many having pretty respectable numbers. I don't know any elite-level lifter using 5/3/1, but they are a different species, aren't they. There are probably bunch of others examples in the real world, it is only a glimpse what we got here on interwebs.

About the original topic:
i have to admit that I got carried away, and discussion went a little ridiculous. The comparing Jordans and Wendlers stats to determine who is right is just, well, stupid.

I agree with Jordan about 5/3/1 The Triumvirate being not optimal program for a intermediate who looks for optimal and fast strength gains. But of course not all intermediates . What Jim may have thought is ensuring a base. There is no point peak in your squat if your body does not allow you to do HLRs or chins and if you're not going to be a powerlifter. Because 5/3/1, at least the original, is NOT a powerlifting program. 5/3/1 OG (which triumvirate now resembles) is a program for a guy, who has ton of other things going on and just needs to keep pushing. It has nothing to do with optimal.

Most of the people who have not had success, or criticize, 5/3/1. Do not know the whole spectrum, thought. Good example is that Wendler rarely uses "+" sets with beginners, or even intermediates. He actually has even said that the "+" are fun, but in no means necessary for building strength.

Biggest difference between TM and some 3-day full body programs from Wendler is the intensity. Anyone who knows anything about Wendlers current programming know that most of his programs are full body, he also emphasis the sub maximal training (5s pro + supplemental, often done with pretty high volume) and relatively high volume assistance. We can discuss pros and cons in here, but we must understand that the main philosophy difference between SS-style and 5/3/1-style training is that the former focuses on max. strength and other has emphasis on conditioning, relative strength and other stuff too. Anything else (frequency, volume etc.) are just variables which change from program to program.

[Cmmm]

Sorry about all the typos. In the sentence which I did not finish, I meant that not every intermediate is the same with the same background. There is no point peaking your squat if you can't do 10 chins or some HLRs. Similarly, a 20 year old guy will recover from pretty much anything, as the 55 year old guy with zero athletic background can not be treated as same.