starting strength gym
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 28

Thread: Intermediate and Advanced Training: A Few Ideas

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    1,237

    Default

    • starting strength seminar april 2024
    • starting strength seminar jume 2024
    • starting strength seminar august 2024
    Tonnage can't be the singular metric used. If so, we could take this to the extreme - say German Volume Training 10x10...
    (Load MUST be part of the equation)

    So we have our guy doing 4 day split (2x/week training):
    355x5x5 = 25 reps, 8875 pounds
    380x5 = 5 reps, 1900 pounds
    30 reps, total 10775 pounds, average load = 360 pounds (rounded up from 359).

    Your hypothetical lifter, squatting 3x a week:
    320x5 + 340x5 + 360x5 = 5100 pounds
    315x4 + 330x4 + 345x4 = 3960 pounds
    285x8 + 300x8 + 315x8 = 7200 pounds
    15+12+24 = 51 reps
    16260 pounds, average load of 318

    One more hypothetical lifter:
    2x/ week German Volume Training 10x10 @ 50%
    Monday: 205 10x10 = 20,500
    Friday: 210 10x10 = 21,000
    200 reps, total tonnage: 41,500, average load 207.5lbs

    But would anyone argue that this guy got STRONGER? Ie - the ability to produce force went UP?

    Let's make this oversimplified (I am not saying these numbers are dead-on at all, just using it for discussion purposes). Also, I understand that I'm talking in %s, which the article correctly gets rid of, but it makes the discussion simpler here:

    Regarding LOAD for the trained (non-Novice) lifter:

    1) I would argue that anything below ~70% (of 1rm) is not going to produce significant strength increase. Virtually any hypertrophy induced will be sarcoplasmic (non-contractile).

    2) 70-80% would produce some hypertrophy, most of which is probably sarcoplasmic (non-contractile). Anyone who has done multiple reps in the 75% range knows it's NOTHING like heavy 1s-5s, so the practice/skill component is negated here. I would argue that this range leads to SOME strength increase, but not as efficiently as heavier loads.

    3) 80-90% is most likely where the best bang for your buck is where you get significant hypertrophy (both contractile AND non-contractile) and actual heavy motor-pattern practice for the lift. The vast majority of our work is done in this range for Intermediate and Advanced Lifters.

    4) 90%+ certainly has an adaptive training effect, but it's probably not much hypertrophy. We primarily use this while prepping for a competition.


    The key for us is figuring out the right combination of volume and load in order to get BOTH contractile-tissue hypertrophy increase AND heavy-ass motor pattern practice for the SKILL of lifting the heaviest weight possible.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    St. Louis, MO
    Posts
    319

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Reynolds View Post

    The key for us is figuring out the right combination of volume and load in order to get BOTH contractile-tissue hypertrophy increase AND heavy-ass motor pattern practice for the SKILL of lifting the heaviest weight possible.
    Ah. So, if i understand this correctly, the omission of heavy ass motor pattern practice is the cardinal sin in my hypothetical; this would make sense intuitively, that without the adaptive stress of the 380x5, the hypothetical example I put out is forgoing not only the ability to put another PR on the board, but also and perhaps more importantly, the specific skill of lifting ever greater weights in the 1-5 rep range.

    Correct?

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    157

    Default

    Here's my thinking. You can accumulate the stress/fatigue basically in 4 different ways:

    1. Keep intensity high and do low volume in terms of sets
    2. Keep volume high in terms of sets and do low intensity (incorporating light and medium days)
    3. Keep volume moderate and intensity moderate (SS LP)
    4. Do high volume and high intensity which requires deload weeks

    We've observed that whatever path you chose, if you're consistent, you'll get results. So I'll list why higher intensity might be better and why higher volume might be better.

    High intensity focused training:
    - usually more simple
    - you learn how to grind
    High volume focused training:
    - more potential for muscle growth which is primary driver of strength gains post novice
    - more frequent exposure to lifts which may increase technique proficiency

    These are on top of my head guesses on why one method is better than another. I think we'd all like to see experienced coaches share their reasoning behind choosing one method over another.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    North Texas
    Posts
    53,562

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by whale View Post
    We've observed that whatever path you chose, if you're consistent, you'll get results.
    Have we?

    Quote Originally Posted by whale View Post
    I think we'd all like to see experienced coaches share their reasoning behind choosing one method over another.
    Good idea. Maybe somebody will write a comprehensive article about it, someday.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    157

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    Have we?
    HLM produces weekly progress as well even though it's significantly different in volume and intensity.
    Good idea. Maybe somebody will write a comprehensive article about it, someday.
    I believe the followers of SS community who are willing to learn, like myself, would like to hear reasoning from all sides.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    135

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tew View Post
    As the number of post-novice trainees continues to increase, it might be worthwhile to consider what percentage of them will still have "setting new PRs as often as possible" as their primary motivating goal in continuing past the novice LP.
    This describes me quite well, though my goal is not competition. You actually capture two of my goals (compression of morbidity and improved body composition) in addition to getting as strong as possible. I have three boys that I'll have to keep up with as they grow. While I see the benefits of signing up to compete, it doesn't motivate me the same way just being stronger does.

    I find the straight-forward programming of the novice progression to be perfect, and I've been apprehensive about the transition to intermediate programming. Managing the complexity of those programs is more than I'm ready to bite off. I manage enough complexity at work; training has been a respite from it. I know that eventually such complexity will be necessary, but easing into it is fantastic.

    This article pairs quite well with Barbell Logic podcast episode #53, wherein Reynolds and Hambrick describe a transition from LP to Texas Method via Advanced Novice as described in PPST3. Again, they emphasize the lowest effective dose. The squat transition they describe is great, though I felt like they skipped a step or two describing the press transition. Jumping from 3 presses per week to 6 seems like a sudden transition.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Lakeland, FL
    Posts
    3,112

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    Maybe somebody will write a comprehensive article about it, someday.
    Apparently the real trick is getting people to read it and think about it before they make silly comments about it.

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    North Texas
    Posts
    53,562

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchless View Post
    This describes me quite well, though my goal is not competition. You actually capture two of my goals (compression of morbidity and improved body composition) in addition to getting as strong as possible.
    The reason a guy in your situation signs up for and competes in meets is not to win the meet -- it's to motivate your training. Try it and see what I mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by whale View Post
    HLM produces weekly progress as well even though it's significantly different in volume and intensity.
    Why do you keep telling me fascinating facts about the programs I wrote?

    I believe the followers of SS community who are willing to learn, like myself, would like to hear reasoning from all sides.
    And finally, you have it: Intermediate and Advanced Training: A Few Ideas | Mark Rippetoe

    Quote Originally Posted by George Christiansen View Post
    Apparently the real trick is getting people to read it and think about it before they make silly comments about it.
    We knew this before we published it. The piece is about 3300 words, and most people will not read the whole thing. It is very dense with information, and most people who do finish it will only read it once. This will not stop them from commenting with absolute certainty, using questions as statements and other such passive/aggressive doodoo. But this piece was prepared as a position statement, and as such is designed for reference purposes, not entertainment.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    531

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Reynolds View Post
    Tonnage can't be the singular metric used. If so, we could take this to the extreme - say German Volume Training 10x10...
    (Load MUST be part of the equation)
    Is there a simple metric, for example: At least one of tonnage and average load must be going up. If only one is going up, the other should not be going down. Only include lifts over about 70% or RPE 7.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    4

    Default

    starting strength coach development program
    Rip

    I’m a 49 year old well into my novice progression. The 4 day split looks like a nice transition before intermediate training. I realize it’s in Practical Programming but I couldn’t find it in The Barbell Prescription. Is the 4 day split you describe appropriate for masters?

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •