Herbison's Training Log

[John Hanley]

For a solid week, I was quite literally losing sleep over this. As in, I would lay down, try to clear my head for sleep, and instead think about whether layback is due to hip or lumbar extension, and whether/how much it matters, and whether the force applied to the bar changes, and whether shifting the body position adds the use of more muscle mass, or just shifts the muscle mass... for three hours.

So? What'd you come up with?

[Simon Rest]

That was well said, and very diplomatic. If you want to find them you know where they are

[Sean Herbison]

So? What'd you come up with?

What I came up with is that a lot of people are way too dogmatic. They'll use absolute terms and then be unwilling to back down when presented with evidence to the contrary.

In regards to the press itself, I came up with the fact that I need to spend more time with Netter. My initial conclusions are that some layback is helpful in much the same way as low-bar back squatting, in that it does shift away from the "target" musculature a bit, but allows the use of heavier weights, which is generally helpful for adding stimulus for a strength training adaptation. But extreme layback is not useful for that, as it changes the stress distribution too much, and you're better off just bench pressing at that point.

I also think that, while people in some of the videos/pictures of extreme layback clearly show better abdominal/lumbar control than I do when laying back that far, there is still some lumbar flexion that's going on. With moderate layback I don't see this being an issue, but with the back going more horizontal I think that could easily lead to problems. I and a few others spoke up about that a few times in the threads previously mentioned. I think part of that is keeping the abs tight, which I have failed to do very well in the past, but beyond a certain amount of layback, it probably doesn't matter how good of control you keep, there's no way of doing it with hip extension alone.

I'm more than willing to be proven wrong on any/all of these conclusions though, so long as the evidence is there and a good argument is made.

[Sean Herbison]

What I came up with is that a lot of people are way too dogmatic. They'll use absolute terms and then be unwilling to back down when presented with evidence to the contrary.

By the way, I just mentioned Jujimufu in a previous post, and that's one of the things I like about him. Does he do strength training optimally? Eh, probably not, but that's not his sole focus. Either way, he's very willing to earnestly listen to a whole range of different views and pick out what works from each of them. Sure, he probably ends up picking up some nonsense in the process, but he gets a lot of good information too.

[cgeorg]

By the way, I just mentioned Jujimufu in a previous post, and that's one of the things I like about him. Does he do strength training optimally? Eh, probably not, but that's not his sole focus. Either way, he's very willing to earnestly listen to a whole range of different views and pick out what works from each of them. Sure, he probably ends up picking up some nonsense in the process, but he gets a lot of good information too.

I've recently started following Bud Jeffries and it's for much the same reason. Strong people having lots of fun while getting strong in likely less-than-optimal ways are a lot more refreshing, interesting and inspiring than dogmatics. And there is almost always going to be something useful to take away.

[CamLeslie]

Strong people having lots of fun while getting strong in likely less-than-optimal ways are a lot more refreshing, interesting and inspiring than dogmatics.

I don't usually chime in but I like this quote a lot. You only get one life. Quick story then I will shut up. I used to train at the YMCA in Seattle and I was getting ready for a meet or something and I had my workout all written out like a good little strength trainee when I showed up at the gym. I have a friend there who is intellectually disabled and he asked me "What are we doing today bro?" Optimally speaking I should blow him off, do my squats are RPE 9 with 7.16% fatigue or whatever to get ready for the meet but instead I did the human thing which was bro out on the bench press and do curlz until our arms fell off "for the pump".

If it isn't fun sometimes, why are we doing it?

[Sean Herbison]

Saturday, 23 September

Beltless Squat: 315x6x5@~7
Front Squat: 185x3, 190x3, 195x3, 200x3, 205x3 @~7
DB Bench: 85sx9x4@8ish
Chinup: BWx10, 8, 7, 5

Moved to three minutes rest on squats, but sticking with two for front squats. They're really more of a mobility/form work than anything really heavy anyway.

My squats have been way too light recently, but I suck at doing them on short (for me) rest periods, and I'm determined to stick with it and adapt. Unfortunately, I've never found the statement that conditioning is easily and quickly gained to be true, at least for myself. Then again, I never had a high conditioning level to begin with, so it's not like I'm just getting back to where I was.

At least my chinups are getting better.

[Sean Herbison]

Monday, 18 September
...
CG Bench: 240x3x4@8

That should've been 230, not 240.

Monday, 25 September

T&G Bench: 245x6x5@8
CG Bench: 235x3x4@8
Barbell Row: 230x5x3@7
Hanging Knee Raise: BWx20x3
Assault Bike: 0:20/1:40x4

Pretty standard session. While these upper-body lifts aren't cardiovascularly taxing like the squats, they're still forcing an adaptation to occur, and I'm getting better at doing them with smaller rest periods (still two minutes). I'm finally getting back to what I'd consider respectable numbers here. Well, getting closer, anyhow.

The RPE is still going up a noticeable bit each set, but it's not as bad as it was before, where it was forcing me to take weight off the bar to stay in the right range and get all my reps. What I write above is the average RPE, but for instance, today's sets on bench were 7, 7.5, 8, 8.5, and 9.5. So, except for the last set, just small jumps in effort for each set.

Moving the bike intervals to Monday, and putting in some sort of longer, slower cardio thing on Thursdays. Maybe just walking around my neighborhood. There's enough hills, it counts.

[Sean Herbison]

Oh hey, I showed up in the weekly report. Neat. It's from a thread that's over three years old, but I still stand by it, which is nice.

[ithryn]

What I came up with is that a lot of people are way too dogmatic. They'll use absolute terms and then be unwilling to back down when presented with evidence to the contrary.

This was my assessment, essentially. I think both sides were kinda right - definitely some lumbar extension going on, but if you can swing it, who cares? I don't know that anybody really asked if the old Oly pressers had disc issues from laying back. I'm suspecting not - you usually blow a disc bending over, not arching back, since you apply forward stress on your discs a million times a day, heck just by standing up with your gut hanging out, but I suspect athletic dudes don't usually blow out their back doing the limbo at weddings. But I guess I shouldn't rehash it all here.

If it isn't fun sometimes, why are we doing it?

This is why I like working under Andy Baker's club programming now. I'm not used to doing a lot of variation. I don't know if every exercise and rep is carefully calculated to get me stronger or if he's just having fun seeing what he can make a bunch of dudes do, but it's fun for now, and yolo.