Tweaking SS for my needs.

[fencer]

Hi all. First thank you for anyone that can help. I’ll try to keep this post as short and sweet as I can but feel free to ask if you need any more information.

Height: 6’1 / Weight: 172 lbs(78 KG) / BF%: 18 (estimated with calipers 4 point method)

Squat: 90 KG (3x5) – Done 105 before but form was bad so dropped.
Bench: 50KG (3x5)
OHP: 35KG (3x5)
Deadlift: 95KG (1x5)
Clean: Not started but will now..
Chin-up’s/Pull ups: 0

• I originally started SS at the end of last year but I’ve had nagging patella pain in both knees which left me doing SS on and off. I’m starting to get past it but it does mean my knees are sensitive to over training
• I plan to start fencing 3 days a week now the new season has begun (Tue, Wed, Thur). Some people recommended dropping my squats to twice per week (mon/Fri) which could work?
• I haven’t done any cleans yet but I will add them now. They are great for fencing too.
• I know my deadlift sucks. My form isn’t great and my grip strength and forearms (actually arms in general) are very weak.
• I can’t do any chin ups/pull ups but I want to start practicing with negatives or lat pull downs. Whatever it takes to get them into my routine.
• I’ve stalled a lot on my lifts leaving me feeling like I’ve used all my beginner gains yet my lifts are pretty bad. I will eat a lot more over the next few months to try and get my weight up to 85 KG.
• I’d also like to add extra ab work (planks, side planks, ab wheel) this isn't’ for aesthetic reasons but all fencers have a really solid core and abs.

What should my program look like? I was thinking of having Wednesday as a lighter day or without squats but really, but I’m not sure how to add in assistance exercises (chins etc)

Thanks for any advice.

[shib]

Hi all. First thank you for anyone that can help. I’ll try to keep this post as short and sweet as I can but feel free to ask if you need any more information.

Height: 6’1 / Weight: 172 lbs(78 KG) / BF%: 18 (estimated with calipers 4 point method)

Squat: 90 KG (3x5) – Done 105 before but form was bad so dropped.
Bench: 50KG (3x5)
OHP: 35KG (3x5)
Deadlift: 95KG (1x5)
Clean: Not started but will now..
Chin-up’s/Pull ups: 0

• I originally started SS at the end of last year but I’ve had nagging patella pain in both knees which left me doing SS on and off. I’m starting to get past it but it does mean my knees are sensitive to over training
• I plan to start fencing 3 days a week now the new season has begun (Tue, Wed, Thur). Some people recommended dropping my squats to twice per week (mon/Fri) which could work?
• I haven’t done any cleans yet but I will add them now. They are great for fencing too.
• I know my deadlift sucks. My form isn’t great and my grip strength and forearms (actually arms in general) are very weak.
• I can’t do any chin ups/pull ups but I want to start practicing with negatives or lat pull downs. Whatever it takes to get them into my routine.
• I’ve stalled a lot on my lifts leaving me feeling like I’ve used all my beginner gains yet my lifts are pretty bad. I will eat a lot more over the next few months to try and get my weight up to 85 KG.
• I’d also like to add extra ab work (planks, side planks, ab wheel) this isn't’ for aesthetic reasons but all fencers have a really solid core and abs.

What should my program look like? I was thinking of having Wednesday as a lighter day or without squats but really, but I’m not sure how to add in assistance exercises (chins etc)

Thanks for any advice.

Gonna just go down the list here.

I originally started SS at the end of last year but I’ve had nagging patella pain in both knees which left me doing SS on and off. I’m starting to get past it but it does mean my knees are sensitive to over training

It means exactly fuck all until we can see how you're squatting. It is also unlikely you're overtraining unless there's been some regression in performance. Patellar pain isn't indicative of overtraining so much as it is a minor strain or bad mechanics. Post a form check in the coaches Q&A. This is also not the first time you've been told this (Fencing S&C and SS)

I plan to start fencing 3 days a week now the new season has begun (Tue, Wed, Thur). Some people recommended dropping my squats to twice per week (mon/Fri) which could work?

There is no reason to do this unless you're insufficiently recovering between workouts (read: stalling on squats). Cut/dose volume only when it's necessary

I haven’t done any cleans yet but I will add them now. They are great for fencing too.

Bueno.

I know my deadlift sucks. My form isn’t great and my grip strength and forearms (actually arms in general) are very weak.

This is another for the form checks. Additionally (other than eating more) a small tweak can be just holding your last rep of deadlifts upright until your grip starts to go (double overhand of course).

I can’t do any chin ups/pull ups but I want to start practicing with negatives or lat pull downs. Whatever it takes to get them into my routine.

Negatives or bands are the way to go here since you still need to stabilize yourself during the movement.

I’ve stalled a lot on my lifts leaving me feeling like I’ve used all my beginner gains yet my lifts are pretty bad. I will eat a lot more over the next few months to try and get my weight up to 85 KG.

You're 6'1", 85kg isn't a good target, shooting for 100kg over the course of the next few months will serve you a lot better.

I’d also like to add extra ab work (planks, side planks, ab wheel) this isn't’ for aesthetic reasons but all fencers have a really solid core and abs.

If you find ab work fun, then go ahead. I would also like to ask how you intend to squat/deadlift/press/bench/clean without using your abs as I've never heard of this happening.

What should my program look like?

Where it says "Phase 1" Starting Strength Training Programs

[fencer]

Gonna just go down the list here.

Thank’s for the reply shib.

Sadly I can’t film myself as my phones camera is busted. To add some more context to my knees, they were fked up before I started squatting (back when 40KG seemed hard). Fencing is very tough on the legs and knees though which is why I thought a mid-week rest could help keep me consistent.

My gyms not so equipped so I can’t use any resistance bands for pull ups, although I did in my old gym and hated using them.

RE my weight, fencers tend to be pretty light. For someone my height they tend to weigh between 78-85 KG at around 10% body fat. That still puts them as having a LBM of around 160 where I’m around a 140 right now. From what I’ve read beginners can only gain around 2-2.5lbs of muscle per month so gaining excessive fat would only hinder my fencing.

Regarding abs, I know all exercises use abs, but if I have something left in the tank for the end, is there much harm in doing a couple exercises?

Thanks again.

[shib]

Thank’s for the reply shib.

Sadly I can’t film myself as my phones camera is busted. To add some more context to my knees, they were fked up before I started squatting (back when 40KG seemed hard). Fencing is very tough on the legs and knees though which is why I thought a mid-week rest could help keep me consistent.

Could you elaborate a bit more on the knees? Did you have some prior condition or just general pain etc? The idea of a light day mid-week isn't a bad one, it just seems unnecessary until performance is compromised.

Also if your phone doesn't work then call in a favor from a buddy to get them to film you. This is difficult to analyze without information about how you're squatting.

My gyms not so equipped so I can’t use any resistance bands for pull ups, although I did in my old gym and hated using them.

Then negatives are better, although I understand why the bands can get fucking annoying to deal with.

RE my weight, fencers tend to be pretty light. For someone my height they tend to weigh between 78-85 KG at around 10% body fat. That still puts them as having a LBM of around 160 where I’m around a 140 right now. From what I’ve read beginners can only gain around 2-2.5lbs of muscle per month so gaining excessive fat would only hinder my fencing.

I would like you to consider something. Fencing isn't a weight class sport as far as I know, so the range of body types in fencing is a lot broader than something like weightlifting or MMA. While many successful fencers may in fact be very lean, this itself shouldn't be your main motivation for trying to get to a specific weight. If you're capable of moving the Rapier faster at 220 than you are at 160 (without your technique suffering too much) why not go into your matches at 220? I'm not claiming to have knowledge of advanced fencing, but I think holding a mentality of trying to maximize performance (which may in fact involve you losing weight to improve your power-to-weight ratio) is a better way to approach training than "most fencers are X weight."

Regarding abs, I know all exercises use abs, but if I have something left in the tank for the end, is there much harm in doing a couple exercises?

Well if you leave the gym exhausted or feeling like you could run a 5k it largely shouldn't matter to you. The goal is planned progress. Now on the subject of doing additional exercises, at best you're doing extra stuff to muscle groups that are already going to get stronger due to the training program or you're going to compromise your recovery by adding in volume that is difficult to account for. Make sense?

[chrisd]

Hi all. First thank you for anyone that can help. I’ll try to keep this post as short and sweet as I can but feel free to ask if you need any more information.

Height: 6’1 / Weight: 172 lbs(78 KG) / BF%: 18 (estimated with calipers 4 point method)

Squat: 90 KG (3x5) – Done 105 before but form was bad so dropped.
Bench: 50KG (3x5)
OHP: 35KG (3x5)
Deadlift: 95KG (1x5)
Clean: Not started but will now..
Chin-up’s/Pull ups: 0

• I originally started SS at the end of last year but I’ve had nagging patella pain in both knees which left me doing SS on and off. I’m starting to get past it but it does mean my knees are sensitive to over training
• I plan to start fencing 3 days a week now the new season has begun (Tue, Wed, Thur). Some people recommended dropping my squats to twice per week (mon/Fri) which could work?
• I haven’t done any cleans yet but I will add them now. They are great for fencing too.
• I know my deadlift sucks. My form isn’t great and my grip strength and forearms (actually arms in general) are very weak.
• I can’t do any chin ups/pull ups but I want to start practicing with negatives or lat pull downs. Whatever it takes to get them into my routine.
• I’ve stalled a lot on my lifts leaving me feeling like I’ve used all my beginner gains yet my lifts are pretty bad. I will eat a lot more over the next few months to try and get my weight up to 85 KG.
• I’d also like to add extra ab work (planks, side planks, ab wheel) this isn't’ for aesthetic reasons but all fencers have a really solid core and abs.

What should my program look like? I was thinking of having Wednesday as a lighter day or without squats but really, but I’m not sure how to add in assistance exercises (chins etc)

Thanks for any advice.

I'm inclined to agree with shib here, that the basic programme would be best.

Weak arms and grip don't seem to be a good thing for a fencer. How are you doing to chop somebody in half with a sabre ? Using heavier weights will develop the grip. Gripping hard helps lifts. Squeeze the hell out of the bar. Bend the damned thing, show it who's boss.

For chin ups, yes, do whatever it takes. Bands, negatives, timed hangs with bent arms, jump assist, kip, feet on floor angled chin ups, scream obscenities, anything. Grab the bar like you want to kill it and pull the thing towards you so that you can finish it off by ramming it with your chest. Partial chin ups still have a training effect, heaven knows there are enough people doing them in gyms up and down the land. Can you spend a few quid on a doorway bar ? They even sell them in Asda. Put one up and have a go at it every time you walk past it. If you aren't actaully doing loads of chin ups, it won't overtrain you. Attempting chin ups after a deadlift session might be a problem, as would doing them before, lats.

The core ? I used to train abs, then I got a bit sick of crunch variations and hanging leg raises, so I stopped about a year ago. The press works the core. Are you microloading the press ? and the bench for that matter, 2.5kg can be a heck of a jump.

Plank are a great exercise if your sport requires you to lie down supported on your elbows for extended lengths of time. Planks increase muscular endurance, not strength. These things seem to be more of test of core strength than a way of producing it.

Chins and cleans are part of the programme, so you could declare yourself advanced enough to to alternate the deadlift with power cleans and chin ups in whatever order it says in PPST.

Anything not in the programme should be done after the main lifts, preferably before the two day rest and you'll probably get bored with it anyway and stop doing the other stuff, most people do.

And buy some pies.

[fencer]

Could you elaborate a bit more on the knees? Did you have some prior condition or just general pain etc? The idea of a light day mid-week isn't a bad one, it just seems unnecessary until performance is compromised.

I’ve seen two physiotherapists and had an MRI scan on both knees. The pain is just below the knee cap at the patella. They both called it some form or chondromalacia patella/runners knee issue. Originally it hurt to walk, knees would flare up after doing any exercises and stairs were a nightmare. These days they still flare up if push them too much (fencing is essentially like plyometrics) stairs are still difficult on a bade day and if I do lots of walking they will ache. It helps my shoes have a large soft sole with a special insole. Taking my squats from 30 KG to 90-100 KG has helped too. That all being said I used to not be able to train and now I can, so things are improving. Oh and the MRI came back saying there was no significant cartilage damage so no surgery needed.

Also if your phone doesn't work then call in a favor from a buddy to get them to film you. This is difficult to analyze without information about how you're squatting.

Yeah, I’ll try and do it in a couple weeks (I have a competition this weekend so won’t lift too much till after then)

I would like you to consider something. Fencing isn't a weight class sport as far as I know, so the range of body types in fencing is a lot broader than something like weightlifting or MMA. While many successful fencers may in fact be very lean, this itself shouldn't be your main motivation for trying to get to a specific weight. If you're capable of moving the Rapier faster at 220 than you are at 160 (without your technique suffering too much) why not go into your matches at 220? I'm not claiming to have knowledge of advanced fencing, but I think holding a mentality of trying to maximize performance (which may in fact involve you losing weight to improve your power-to-weight ratio) is a better way to approach training than "most fencers are X weight."

Well when I say most fencers what I should have said was most Olympic fencers. I’m obviously not Olympic standard but looking for trends in their body composition is a good way to create some long term goals. Why are fencers my height around 80 KG and not 100 KG? Why are table tennis players so slim or squash players? I don’t fully understand the science but I’ve seen studies that show when a fencer lunges they will hit their opponent before their body can reach peak speed. So that’s why increasing your squat won’t always make your lunge faster, but power exercises will. But no one ever lunges straight into an opponent. You will first have to move back and forth a lot, changing your balance and tempo. Don’t get me wrong though, I’m squatting 90KG when I should be squatting at least 2 times body weight. I’m certainly not worried about being too strong right now. I could probably go up to 90KG before I cut but any more and that will require buying a whole new set of fencing kit.

Well if you leave the gym exhausted or feeling like you could run a 5k it largely shouldn't matter to you. The goal is planned progress. Now on the subject of doing additional exercises, at best you're doing extra stuff to muscle groups that are already going to get stronger due to the training program or you're going to compromise your recovery by adding in volume that is difficult to account for. Make sense?

Makes sense. I’d prefer to keep my progress simple but I feel like my core is still weak right now. Perhaps some extra ab work might help my squats?

Thanks again for your reply, it’s really appreciated.

Can you spend a few quid on a doorway bar ? They even sell them in Asda. Put one up and have a go at it every time you walk past it. If you aren't actaully doing loads of chin ups, it won't overtrain you. Attempting chin ups after a deadlift session might be a problem, as would doing them before, lats.

I could buy one but I’m not sure if it would work. I have only one doorway in my flat and I seem to remember not having enough room for the bar. I will check again but it may also be an issue the frame of the door is old since the flat is…old.

The core ? I used to train abs, then I got a bit sick of crunch variations and hanging leg raises, so I stopped about a year ago. The press works the core. Are you microloading the press ? and the bench for that matter, 2.5kg can be a heck of a jump.

The smallest plate in the gym is 1.25 KG so yeah, 2.5KG is my minimum increase. Do you think it’s worth looking online for smaller plates?

Plank are a great exercise if your sport requires you to lie down supported on your elbows for extended lengths of time. Planks increase muscular endurance, not strength. These things seem to be more of test of core strength than a way of producing it.

I do need to increase my muscular endurance too. I run out of gas on fencing nights and in competitions. They are long days with lots of bouts.

Thanks for your advice too!

[fencer]

You have been here over a year now, and keep making the "well gold-medalists are X" argument. It's not working.

I'm sorry I don't follow. All I've tried to do so far is the basic SS program and fencing - nothing more than that. So this post is about, do I still keep grinding with the basic program and hopefully get stronger, or do I tweak it slightly so I can progress better. That's why I came here asking for help.

[fencer]

Alright, it's too late for what would have been best to do in the "off season" so at this point, perhaps try something like:
Sat: 5/3/1 Squats, prowler walks
Sun: 5/3/1 press, BBB
Tues: fencing
Wed:5/3/1 DL; fencing
Thurs: 5/3/1 Bench; fencing

Read To Be A Beast, and set macros for gaining weight. Forget about 85KG, entirely and 100%. You will probably get stronger.

This is interesting. You think this would be better than a advanced novice program like I said? Also how does 5/3/1 work?

Also I feel like I've been misunderstood about this 85 KG figure. I was saying Olympic fencers my height are 80-85KG with 10-12% body fat. I'm only 78KG and with more body fat so I'm not afraid of gaining weight nor have I been.

Thanks for your advice though!

[fencer]

I don't know if it would work better or not. IIRC I was fencing 4 days a week, and it was pretty tiring. I don't know if I could add in anything that was pushing my recovery as hard as an LP. I didn't do any lifting then, though.
5/3/1 is a good book to buy. I'm not familiar with any of the material besides 1sd edition and Beyond, but I recommend them as useful material even if one doesn't utilize the system.

Cool thanks. Obviously the new season for me has just began but I'm not focused on results too much. Just focused on being in peak shape for next season (11 months from now)

[chrisd]

[QUOTE=fencer;1400205
The smallest plate in the gym is 1.25 KG so yeah, 2.5KG is my minimum increase. Do you think it’s worth looking online for smaller plates?


[/QUOTE]

Yes, absolutely, I bought a set of 8 250g plates from Fitness_bits on ebay. They are available elsewhere, or just use girly wrist weights from Tesco. You can just weigh out some stuff and hang it from the bar, whatever. It is a rare creature that can go on incrementing by 2.5 kg per session. Typical spring clips are 270g each, so that's a possible solution.

Your alternative is to use the late lamented Kyle's "managing compromise" solution and chase reps on the last set until you can lift 5,5,10. It works, but frankly it's slow.

2.5kg is sometimes a challenging jump on the squat and deadlift when it's about 2% of the lift. How hard is it going to be to make this jump when it's nearer 8% of the lift ?

For the chin ups, freestanding bars are available, anything you can hang on to and supports your weight will do. Tube trains have bars by the doors, ride the circle line and get some practice, the added instability should add a bit of excitement.


Planks increase your endurance for lying down. I haven't fenced properly, but I'm assuming the rounds are like other fighting sports, a couple of minutes where you rush back and forth trying to hit someone and if you rest for a bit, they try to hit you.