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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jefferson View Post
    Maybe they're on steroids? That website is (was?) very pro steroids, not surprising seeing as they idolise all those steroid guys like Doug Young etc. I'm pretty sure you yourself would easily reach a squat of 600lbs after a decent length of time on steroids combined with stuffing your face and becoming obese Tom. Would that make you a programming guru?
    Do you have to be a fucking guru to give good advice? You sure seem happy to give out advice on this site. Are you a guru?

    Do you personally know anyone who has taken steroids? At all? Have you done any research on the subject what-so-ever? It isn't magic. Drugs are not the difference between the people who are sitting at 50% on the bell curve and the people at the very end. Drugs only give you a marginal advantage unless you're doing Jay Cutler doses, which no one does because if they could handle that shit they'd be competing for an IFBB pro-card.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by veryhrm View Post
    This reasoning is at odds with the the whole model of adaptation in PP and underlying the whole concept of novice/intermediate/advanced. The model says basically that a given person will be able to use LP to some level of strength and will have to use a different program above that level. It doesn't matter where they started.

    It's certainly possible that the 70s big people are prime specimens of manhood who can ride LP into the 500s... but it certainly invites the question of how they are able to achieve so much more than the rest of us on this very similar program. Before this, i believe the highest i heard from LP was from Marotta who got his squat in the 400s on LP i believe and he was already an outlier.
    I would urge you not to take such a simplistic view of the stages of adaptation.

    Justin and AC both started lifting weights with an interest in developing good physiques, and both were doing Crossfit prior to doing linear progression. There's a very good chance that their strength adaptation had a glass ceiling imposed by caloric restriction, while their recovery was distracted by conditioning workouts. Yet they both were able to get strong, but probably not as strong as they could be: its very common for weight-class lifters to experience a short, sudden spike in strength once they start eating to move up a class, breaking long-standing PRs. This is essentially what AC and Justin were doing.

    We cannot be certain what adaptations took place, or whether Justin was truly a novice or intermediate by the time he was squatting in the mid 400s: the fact is, he very well could have just been driving his 5RM closer to his 1RM. Its hard to do, but possible, and his description of merely surviving every workout as he approached 500 seems consistent with this.

    And let's not forget that strength is not a general adaptation - it is specific to movements, with some carry-over to other movements. Justin was unadapted to the low-bar squat, but the musculature necessary to achieve his squat numbers was likely already there.

    Let me word it this way: I believe that Justin both had the structural and neuro-endocrine adaptations consistent with an intermediate lifters, but caloric restriction and - most importantly - lack of specific adaptation to the low-bar squat prevented him from -expressing- this level of adaptation. His rapid progress on linear progression, in a sense, was simply his body playing catch-up, with few hindrances in the way of physical adaptation that would be observed in rank novices.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catatonic View Post
    I would urge you not to take such a simplistic view of the stages of adaptation.

    Justin and AC both started lifting weights with an interest in developing good physiques, and both were doing Crossfit prior to doing linear progression. There's a very good chance that their strength adaptation had a glass ceiling imposed by caloric restriction, while their recovery was distracted by conditioning workouts. Yet they both were able to get strong, but probably not as strong as they could be: its very common for weight-class lifters to experience a short, sudden spike in strength once they start eating to move up a class, breaking long-standing PRs. This is essentially what AC and Justin were doing.

    We cannot be certain what adaptations took place, or whether Justin was truly a novice or intermediate by the time he was squatting in the mid 400s: the fact is, he very well could have just been driving his 5RM closer to his 1RM. Its hard to do, but possible, and his description of merely surviving every workout as he approached 500 seems consistent with this.

    And let's not forget that strength is not a general adaptation - it is specific to movements, with some carry-over to other movements. Justin was unadapted to the low-bar squat, but the musculature necessary to achieve his squat numbers was likely already there.

    Let me word it this way: I believe that Justin both had the structural and neuro-endocrine adaptations consistent with an intermediate lifters, but caloric restriction and - most importantly - lack of specific adaptation to the low-bar squat prevented him from -expressing- this level of adaptation. His rapid progress on linear progression, in a sense, was simply his body playing catch-up, with few hindrances in the way of physical adaptation that would be observed in rank novices.
    Well, some of this sounds reasonable. the "structural adaptations" i don't buy because that part is most driven by the size of a person and the actual loads that they move, but "neuro-endocrine" ... that's more experience based so i guess that's plausible.

    The specificity argument also has some merit: E.g. I'm guessing that someone with a (full range) 1200 lbs leg press and a few hundred lbs DL can probably get to a 500lbs squat on LP in a comparatively short time if they start doing it.

    But if this is what we're going with then what relevance does programming based on their own experience have to other people practically none of whom would have similar starting conditions.

    Also, on an entirely different tack, doesn't "70s big" in itself imply steroid use? Did any top level o/p lifters in the 70s NOT use? (i don't actually know, but that's been my impression from what i've read over the years and it wasn't even illegal back then.)

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by veryhrm View Post
    Also, on an entirely different tack, doesn't "70s big" in itself imply steroid use? Did any top level o/p lifters in the 70s NOT use? (i don't actually know, but that's been my impression from what i've read over the years and it wasn't even illegal back then.)
    Lamar Gant?

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Narvaez View Post
    Do you have to be a fucking guru to give good advice? You sure seem happy to give out advice on this site. Are you a guru?
    Do I write ebooks and charge money for them?

    Do you personally know anyone who has taken steroids? At all? Have you done any research on the subject what-so-ever? It isn't magic. Drugs are not the difference between the people who are sitting at 50% on the bell curve and the people at the very end. Drugs only give you a marginal advantage unless you're doing Jay Cutler doses, which no one does because if they could handle that shit they'd be competing for an IFBB pro-card.
    Take a look at the Mr Olympia champion and compare him to the biggest drug free bodybuilder in the world and you'll understand the difference steroids make.

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by veryhrm View Post
    Well, some of this sounds reasonable. the "structural adaptations" i don't buy because that part is most driven by the size of a person and the actual loads that they move, but "neuro-endocrine" ... that's more experience based so i guess that's plausible.

    The specificity argument also has some merit: E.g. I'm guessing that someone with a (full range) 1200 lbs leg press and a few hundred lbs DL can probably get to a 500lbs squat on LP in a comparatively short time if they start doing it.

    But if this is what we're going with then what relevance does programming based on their own experience have to other people practically none of whom would have similar starting conditions.

    Also, on an entirely different tack, doesn't "70s big" in itself imply steroid use? Did any top level o/p lifters in the 70s NOT use? (i don't actually know, but that's been my impression from what i've read over the years and it wasn't even illegal back then.)
    Per structural adaptations - musculature is included in there. What do think is happening when a person uses assistance exercises? Some powerlifters may choose to effectively stop including deadlifts in their programs for months, relying on RDLs and goodmornings; only when competition nears do they start doing the lift, in order clear the gap between their structural adaptations and their motor pathways (because specificity still matters for maximum expression of strength).

    As for the programming - arguing that Justin's programming advice is invalid because he and his friends have unique lifting histories is hogwash. We all have unique lifting histories, and many coaches form the foundation of their knowledge in their years of being keenly observant and disciplined lifters.

    "Also, on an entirely different tack, doesn't "70s big" in itself imply steroid use? Did any top level o/p lifters in the 70s NOT use? (i don't actually know, but that's been my impression from what i've read over the years and it wasn't even illegal back then.)"

    Now you're just reaching.

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Narvaez View Post
    Drugs only give you a marginal advantage unless you're doing Jay Cutler doses, which no one does because if they could handle that shit they'd be competing for an IFBB pro-card.


    I dunno, doesn't look like Jay's on steroids to me.
    (Sorry, as a Bears fan, I couldn't pass this one up)

  8. #208
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    How dare Justin Lascek change his stance on diet, training ,etc. I think the problem is that a lot of guys don't learn from training and eating; they just go through the motions. They just keep eating to put on bodyweight, regardless of where they're at in their training and body composition. The whole overzealous eating thing is because skinny guys "who can't gain weight" just don't eat enough and have fucked up eating habits. One could argue an extreme of overfeeding diet advice is not the best, however left to a moderate diet, a lot of them take on the bb.com-style "Clean-bulk", which is composed of rice, chicken breasts, and whey. They stay small; the lift stay small.

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    One big natural powerlifter guy I know through the net says he simply can't get past 220 without eating junk, he has tried it and it doesn't work.

    I like Justin's new scheme with Paleo/Meat/Fats as opposed to the Bodybuilding approach (who wants to be on that kind of diet for the rest of your life?). As a fat fuck I feel this would work for me but it remains to be seen if it could get anyone massive (or 70's big).

  10. #210
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    starting strength coach development program
    The starting strength community, as established by Rip, is based around the canon he's developed from decades of making untrained individuals strong. His self-professed specialization is coaching novices through methods developed through empiricism.

    One of the most critical aspects of novice advancement - as well all know - is simply getting them to eat an adequate amount of food to fuel the amazing recuperative abilities of the body. Yet dietary habits are one of the most difficult things to change in a person; Rip hounds the issue of eating because it requires that degree of emphasis in order to communicate its importance to the rank novice, who, for lack of experience, cannot properly qualify just how important nutrition is in gaining strength.

    But nutrition is not the only component. Some trainees may easily adapt to eating the necessary volume of food, but for any number of reasons, fail to lift heavy. When a novice lacks an actual coach, there are countless things that can go wrong in the lifting process. If you continue to eat like a properly training novice but aren't training properly, then miserable fucks like Msingh start turning up.

    Moreover, the nutritional zeitgeist spurred on by Rip for novice trainees gets mistakenly carried forward into intermediate stage of adaptation, because, I would argue, the online strength training community is largely composed of novices, and the more experienced lifters and coaches become conditioned to address most problems within the context of novice trainee. The truth is, if a novice has done their job during linear progression, a bodyweight has been achieved that allows optimal recovery through the phase of intermediate training, and the focus should shift to maintaining that weight. Advanced intermediate lifters and advanced lifters are at a stage of adaptation where muscle growth comes very slowly, and a majority of their progress is built off the foundation of the musculature they’ve developed as a novice and an early intermediate – a massive calorie surplus is just a lazy and unnecessary way of eliminating diet as a possible limiting factor in the higher volume training typical of more advanced trainees.

    I think that Justin’s recent post in regards to a cleaner diet are a reflection of his realizing his own nutritional needs in his current state of adaptation – which is probably advanced intermediate. If there has been any pattern in the evolution of 70sbig, it has been that Justin’s blog projects what is most relevant to his own training.

    Beyond that, as Stef pointed out, he’s relatively new at coaching, and its perfectly natural that his perspective is going to evolve as he learns more.

    Let’s stop expecting 70sBig to be a brand, and acknowledge it for what it is: an autiobiographical training and coaching blog.
    Last edited by Joe Kirsch; 02-19-2012 at 12:37 PM. Reason: spelling

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