Suboptimal training for non-NLP son questions

[Adam Levine]

Following up again.

Things are going well - once he got to unweighted squats, his progress with them started flying. I went with the goblet squats, and he took to them extremely well - 25lb with no problems, with better form and control than his unweighted squats a week ago. I think I'm going to have to set up a 4-lift barbell training session for him soon. 30lb goblet squats will be super-easy for him very soon (like, maybe next week).

The power to the people thing sounds like it would be a great idea if we had our own rig at home, but I only get him into the gym once a week - so I need to maximize that one session. I'm considering buying a rig - the Rogue store is only an hour drive away from my coach, so I can browse/shop in-person, and no shipping charges.

-->Adam

[neilc1]

ya know,
he might handle a bar right now,
maybe it is more a grease the groove kinda thing,
he hadn't squatted before,
was tentative / scared to get depth with a bar on his back,
and now that he knows he can get down, and back up, that 45#s really isn't that much,
might be worth a try now.

[Erik Y]

I know from previous posts that the gym you’re training in is less than ideal, and your son will definitely need more exposure than once a week soon. I’d say now is the time to set up in your garage.

[Jeff LC]

Yes, I have the barbell prescription (my favorite of the three books), and read about bunjee suqats. In fact, I use them myself to give me a "tap" reminding me I've hit depth and it's time to go up. Without them, I pretty much always cheat the rep.

There seems to be disagreement about their use though. It's advocated in BBP, but Rip doesn't believe in them, saying you can't train a ROM you aren't reaching.

YouTube

Unfortunately, that principle also applies to deadlifts - he isn't training the muscles used in the bottom section of a squat.

Coach Sullivan also backed this up as Squat Camp, recommending leg presses, so I'm thinking the bunjee-squat/box-squat recommendation might be out of date.

Maybe the 138# of resistance from the machine, plus another 70-100# of me pushing on the chair might be enough to get to an unweighted squat, and from there we can go to dumbbell squats.

-->Adam

This is my unqualified opinion, but i don't think that the leg pressed are going to help obtain the mobility/strength that is required at the bottom of the squat. The issue isn't simple pushing strenght, glute and quads, case closed. It's much more complicated than that. When someone can't get to the bottom of a squat, it isn't as simple as, "they can't push hard enough down there", it's that they can't get their body into the proper position while maintaining the correct posture. So that could be more about lower back stength and mobility, even upper back strength and mobility, flexibility in different parts of the legs.. Hard to say, but to assume it's as simple as "he can't push hard enough so i'll train the leg pushing with a leg press", sort of ignores the base of the problem which is that he doesn't have the mobility/strength/flexibility combo to get into the bottom of a squat, and no matter how many leg presses you train, you aren't training those particular things, right?

I could be totally wrong, just a suspicion. I don't know the solution, but i don't think that machine you showed a picture of can train the whole body to be able to get in the bottom of a squat. It's not about pushing strength,

[Ivan Stepic]

This is my unqualified opinion, but i don't think that the leg pressed are going to help obtain the mobility/strength that is required at the bottom of the squat. The issue isn't simple pushing strenght, glute and quads, case closed. It's much more complicated than that. When someone can't get to the bottom of a squat, it isn't as simple as, "they can't push hard enough down there", it's that they can't get their body into the proper position while maintaining the correct posture. So that could be more about lower back stength and mobility, even upper back strength and mobility, flexibility in different parts of the legs.. Hard to say, but to assume it's as simple as "he can't push hard enough so i'll train the leg pushing with a leg press", sort of ignores the base of the problem which is that he doesn't have the mobility/strength/flexibility combo to get into the bottom of a squat, and no matter how many leg presses you train, you aren't training those particular things, right?

I could be totally wrong, just a suspicion. I don't know the solution, but i don't think that machine you showed a picture of can train the whole body to be able to get in the bottom of a squat. It's not about pushing strength,

Strength can very well be the limiting factor for someone that is unable to assume correct bottom position in the squat. Sure it's a multifactorial thing, but if strength is a limiting factor, then strength in that ROM should be trained. No one is expecting an old lady to assume a perfect bottom position after some time spent leg pressing. The correct position is taught after you can actually squat to parallel. As for mobility problems, my guess is that they take care on it's own as you keep progressing.

[Mark Rippetoe]

What an interesting exchange of ideas! I have used a leg press machine for decades to get weak people strong enough to squat, as I've said many times.

[Dillon Spencer]

What an interesting exchange of ideas! I have used a leg press machine for decades to get weak people strong enough to squat, as I've said many times.

If I recall correctly, it's not a viable option in this case, because the machines at Adam's weird ass boxing gym are meant for kids.

Adam,

Glad to hear the goblet squats seem to be going well. I know a lot of coaches love them because they tend to clean up squat form almost automatically. Not according to the SS model, but compared to unweighted or other forms of loaded squats at least. He'll be under that bar in no time! Hopefully by the time you go see your coach again. Definitely sounds like you're getting to the point where investing in a home gym would be worth it, especially if you'll both get use out of it.

[Justin Smale]

Don't take this the wrong way, but to say you can't control his diet is a defeatist attitude. To take a different example, if instead of eating junkfood when he's with his friends he was smoking you'd step in here and put an end to that because it's bad for his health. Being as overweight as he is (since that weight is coming from fat and not muscle mass) IS a big health issue, probably comparable to smoking. A lot of folks on here accept the idea of gaining weight to get strong, but don't confuse that to mean fat is ok (which I'm sure you aren't). Remember the fight to get him to eat his vegetables as a child? This is the grown up version of that, but just because he's bigger doesn't mean the message has changed. Will it be a harder conversation to have? Absolutely.

When he's still under your roof is the time to nip this in the bud, because it's not going to get better as he gets older and more freedom (goes off to college, gets a job and doesn't need the bribery funds, etc.). You're doing well getting him to go to the gym as best you can, you're teaching him the value of strength which is awesome. You're clearly willing to help him gain strength even though it's not his thing and get him out of his comfort zone, and even if he protests it he NEEDS your help with his eating habits.