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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by BenM View Post
    I have, but not for long enough to see results. But we're not talking about me here, Rip.
    Yes we are, Ben. Because the reason you didn't do them long enough to be productive is the reason no one can do them long enough to be productive: as a practical matter, they can't be done more than about 6 weeks with the kind of weight necessary for the program, because they are too psychologically taxing. Do them for a year yourself and get back to us. I have discussed rep ranges in the books, and you didn't seem to absorb that message either.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by BenM View Post
    Unproductive how?

    Do you think that doing 20 rep squats, and progressively overloading them over time, won't produce some sort of strength / hypertrophy adaption?
    The part in bold is the kicker, its IMO rare to be able to do this. When I was "nearly" at intermediate stage I decided to switch to 5x10 for a bit of variation. I did six weeks for almost zero increase, then ended up taking about 3-4 months off due to frustration and being incredibly run down.

    High rep ranges are not as conducive to progressive overload as low rep ranges.

  3. #13
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    A wise man once said:
    I wouldn't listen to me too. Make your own mistakes.
    Depending on your training advancement, you will get transiently weaker but don't freak out and give it an honest shot as long as it works. As you already know, it won't work for very long. After that I would spend a few weeks with heavy 5's because that's a pretty good way of seeing if it actually worked.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scaldrew View Post
    Why not stay in the 5 rep max rep range and do singles, doubles, triples, quadruples, or go slightly beyond and do sextuples, heptuples, or octuples instead? The jump from 5 to 3 or 7 seems a lot more reasonable than from 5 to 20.
    Yeah, for sure. Do that too. Heck, do that first before doing twenties. I'm not saying twenties is the first variant I'd recommend, just pushing back against the black and white statement that they don't produce anything of value.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    Yes we are, Ben. Because the reason you didn't do them long enough to be productive is the reason no one can do them long enough to be productive: as a practical matter, they can't be done more than about 6 weeks with the kind of weight necessary for the program, because they are too psychologically taxing. Do them for a year yourself and get back to us. I have discussed rep ranges in the books, and you didn't seem to absorb that message either.
    Right, thanks Rip. Now we're getting towards a more productive and reasonable answer. I agree - they're psychologically taxing. So are heavy, max effort fives for session after session too - people can't do that forever either.

    Really what I was taking issue with was your blanket statement that they are unproductive. I don't think that's necessarily the case. Even if you do them too light for a few weeks, they might improve your work capacity. To get stronger, or build muscle, you need to do them heavy enough for long enough and overload them and I agree, that's probably difficult for most people, but it does happen. The OP for example sounds like he has run them before so knows he's capable of it, and is suggesting doing them for 8-10 weeks. If he can do that, then I think it could be productive in some way, do you? If he can't, well, he had a few weeks of unproductive training. In the context of a lifetime of lifting, that's probably not the end of the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Le Comte View Post
    The part in bold is the kicker, its IMO rare to be able to do this. When I was "nearly" at intermediate stage I decided to switch to 5x10 for a bit of variation. I did six weeks for almost zero increase, then ended up taking about 3-4 months off due to frustration and being incredibly run down.

    High rep ranges are not as conducive to progressive overload as low rep ranges.
    This is a kinda blanket statement to make too, I get where you're coming from, but consider that adding sets is a form of overload (for example) so if a lifter couldn't add weight to the bar, they could add sets over time. It also depends on the lifter. Some much prefer higher rep work with lighter weights, they find it easier on the joints, etc. Not me though.

  5. #15
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    Ben, let's just stop with this stupid shit and watch you do heavy 20s for 18 weeks, and see what happens to your tree-trunk thighs and slabs of abs. You don't know what you're talking about, I do, and I want to watch you learn. Let's go!

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by BenM View Post
    Yeah, for sure. Do that too. Heck, do that first before doing twenties. I'm not saying twenties is the first variant I'd recommend, just pushing back against the black and white statement that they don't produce anything of value.



    Right, thanks Rip. Now we're getting towards a more productive and reasonable answer. I agree - they're psychologically taxing. So are heavy, max effort fives for session after session too - people can't do that forever either.

    Really what I was taking issue with was your blanket statement that they are unproductive. I don't think that's necessarily the case. Even if you do them too light for a few weeks, they might improve your work capacity. To get stronger, or build muscle, you need to do them heavy enough for long enough and overload them and I agree, that's probably difficult for most people, but it does happen. The OP for example sounds like he has run them before so knows he's capable of it, and is suggesting doing them for 8-10 weeks. If he can do that, then I think it could be productive in some way, do you? If he can't, well, he had a few weeks of unproductive training. In the context of a lifetime of lifting, that's probably not the end of the world.



    This is a kinda blanket statement to make too, I get where you're coming from, but consider that adding sets is a form of overload (for example) so if a lifter couldn't add weight to the bar, they could add sets over time. It also depends on the lifter. Some much prefer higher rep work with lighter weights, they find it easier on the joints, etc. Not me though.
    Don't be a pussy. Instead of typing hypotheticals come back in 18 weeks and convincingly demonstrate that you made continual progress using 20 rep sets. If you do I will personally apologize for calling you a pussy.

    But everyone already knows neither of these things will happen.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    Ben, let's just stop with this stupid shit and watch you do heavy 20s for 18 weeks, and see what happens to your tree-trunk thighs and slabs of abs. You don't know what you're talking about, I do, and I want to watch you learn. Let's go!
    It would be far more productive if you'd just answer my hypothetical question, which I've asked a few times now. But the OP actually wants to do it, so why don't we let him post some feedback here once he's done?

  8. #18
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    It's not hypothetical to anyone but you, who haven't done it. I have. Many have. It doesn't work, and I've explained why several times on this website and in the books. Look it up. Or shut up, quit being an annoying pussy, and do 18 weeks of heavy 20s instead of typing.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    It's not hypothetical to anyone but you, who haven't done it. I have. Many have. It doesn't work, and I've explained why several times on this website and in the books. Look it up. Or shut up, quit being an annoying pussy, and do 18 weeks of heavy 20s instead of typing.
    The benefit of asking questions from those more experienced than us, is that we can learn from your mistakes, so we can avoid making them too. But it helps to have a bit more than 'they're unproductive' or 'it doesn't work' - if you've explained why somewhere, maybe you could point that out to me instead of calling me names, my copies of the books are at home.

    Interestingly, I did just search '20 rep squats' here on the forums, and one of the first hits was a thread where you said (and I quote): "It basically involves doing a set of 20 with a weight close to what you had previously assumed was your 10RM, once a week for as long as your psychology holds up. Get through the first 10 reps, and then just stand there and do them until your through, however long that takes, with 10 lbs./week added. It's been written about elsewhere. It does work well for what you're describing.
    "


    So it sounds like you did at one point believe they were productive for something.

  10. #20
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    starting strength nutrition camp
    You're not a good reader. Just do the 20s.

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