Is 5 X 5 Method Best for Fat Loss? Other Tweaks?

[Robert Santana]

5 x 5 squats are a whole lot of work. Sure you can do it on the upper body lifts, but bad idea to try and squat that with meaningful weight on a calorie deficit.

[Matt James]

5 x 5 squats are a whole lot of work. Sure you can do it on the upper body lifts, but bad idea to try and squat that with meaningful weight on a calorie deficit.

Can confirm. I did the end of my NLP on a deficit, with some adjustments, and was still on a deficit when I switched to intermediate programming. 5x5 squats are a real bitch on caloric restriction. I think I lasted about a week and a half before going back to maintenance/slight surplus.

[Robert Santana]

There is a reason bodybuilders end up doing reps and lots of assistance exercises. You can't do a whole bunch of squatting and deadlifting when you are starving.

[mpalios]

There is a reason bodybuilders end up doing reps and lots of assistance exercises. You can't do a whole bunch of squatting and deadlifting when you are starving.

A related question Robert (or anyone else)....if you, or anyone else who's strong on the SS method of training was actually able to get to a bodybuilder BF%, would you look the same as a bodybuilder? Does doing 3 sets of 5 get the same level of detail? (*I know SS is not concerned with looks, but with movement patterns. I'm more just curious if getting strong = looking like a body builder if one has low BF.)

[Robert Santana]

Define what a bodybuilder looks like? Many of us would not reach the size of a heavyweight bodybuilder without steroid use even the most muscular of us. If you are asking about level of definition, I would argue close but again, steroids give them that hardness that cannot be achieved by a drug free athlete. But yes, if you get strong at squats, presses, deadlifts, chin ups, and bench presses, all of your muscles will show. You may need to do some bicep and calf work but everything else will pretty much fill out nicely. The last time I got "lean" I was 11% but I weighed 162-165 lb. I was squatting 370, bench pressing 270, pressing 185, performing 18 chin ups in a row (16 pull ups), and deadlifting 440 at the end of that cut. Photos here. If I did this now I speculate I'd still be ~170-175 to achieve the same level of leanness. Not worth it though, I still look like I train at ~18-20% body fat at 190 whereas before that was not the case.

[mpalios]

Define what a bodybuilder looks like? Many of us would not reach the size of a heavyweight bodybuilder without steroid use even the most muscular of us. If you are asking about level of definition, I would argue close but again, steroids give them that hardness that cannot be achieved by a drug free athlete. But yes, if you get strong at squats, presses, deadlifts, chin ups, and bench presses, all of your muscles will show. You may need to do some bicep and calf work but everything else will pretty much fill out nicely. The last time I got "lean" I was 11% but I weighed 162-165 lb. I was squatting 370, bench pressing 270, pressing 185, performing 18 chin ups in a row (16 pull ups), and deadlifting 440 at the end of that cut. Photos here. If I did this now I speculate I'd still be ~170-175 to achieve the same level of leanness. Not worth it though, I still look like I train at ~18-20% body fat at 190 whereas before that was not the case.

You answered my questions, Robert. And I (as usual) poorly worded it here on the forum. If everything else was totally equal, and I did the SS training vs a more conventional/traditional body building program, would my quads or shoulders look the same in both situations? (I know bicep & calves wouldn't) Does the growth...or more precisely does the end result of the muscle growth cause the muscle to look different/more defined/etc doing 3 sets of 12 (as an example) vs 3 of 5?

Looking 'ripped' has nothing to do with the programming of the exercise, and everything to do with BF%/diet. Getting big is getting big. And the best way to get big is to get strong. And the best way to get strong is to do 3 sets of 5.

[CommanderFun]

A related question Robert (or anyone else)....if you, or anyone else who's strong on the SS method of training was actually able to get to a bodybuilder BF%, would you look the same as a bodybuilder? Does doing 3 sets of 5 get the same level of detail? (*I know SS is not concerned with looks, but with movement patterns. I'm more just curious if getting strong = looking like a body builder if one has low BF.)

Depends on what bodybuilder you're talking about. The pro ones? No. No one looks like a pro bodybuilder without taking extreme steps as well as pharmaceutical aids. I will say, pretty much all of them seem to at least do SOME form of training for strength, because that makes the muscles bigger. On top of that the consensus seems to be to do "pump" type work to make the muscles swell with metabolic juices. Essentially it inflames them.

Truly "natural" bodybuilders tend to look less like peak Arnold Schwarzenegger, but more like Bruce Lee. This is something I think gets lost nowadays because the really big pro bodybuilders are doing so many "supplements" that there is an enormous size gap between them and a "natural" person. That's where the "fake natty" phenomenon comes in. You have guys now who are doing SOME PEDs, either less different substances in total, or less aggressive cycles, and since they don't look like the big olympia monster men they try to pass that off as them not using any PEDs at all, and sell stupid workout plans to gullible people who think there's a workout secret to looking like them.

[Robert Santana]

You answered my questions, Robert. And I (as usual) poorly worded it here on the forum. If everything else was totally equal, and I did the SS training vs a more conventional/traditional body building program, would my quads or shoulders look the same in both situations? (I know bicep & calves wouldn't) Does the growth...or more precisely does the end result of the muscle growth cause the muscle to look different/more defined/etc doing 3 sets of 12 (as an example) vs 3 of 5?

Looking 'ripped' has nothing to do with the programming of the exercise, and everything to do with BF%/diet. Getting big is getting big. And the best way to get big is to get strong. And the best way to get strong is to do 3 sets of 5.

If you are progressively overloading you are going to grow regardless of whether you do 5s, 10s, 15s, or 3s. However, the key benefit to SS and the programs that build off of the novice program is the performance of the barbell lifts and chin-ups year round. Bodybuilders often don't press or deadlift. They press with dumbbells or machines, do various dumbbell raises, and some may do seated barbell or smith machine presses with a partial ROM and a wider grip down to the chin (although not as common). Most of their back work consists of rows, pulldowns and RDLs, with little time spent on The Deadlift. Although the books are intended for strength acquisition, muscle acquisition is a side effect and physique competitors need to acquire muscle, with bodybuilders needing to acquire maximal muscle. Maximal muscle growth may be 10-20 lb of muscle over one guy's training career whereas 20-30 lb of muscle may be the limit for another guy. Maybe more for another. There is lots of variability here, but the point I want to hit is how we get there for most of us.

Rather than focus on the nuances of programming volume, intensity, repetition ranges etc, I want to highlight that the exercise selection that we promote here is what is superior to traditional bodybuilding programs in the context of training drug free, middle-of-the-bell-curve lifters. The guy with capstone delts and low baseline bodyfat is going to grow muscle regardless of what he does. I'm more concerned about guys like you that have or will end up spinning their wheels on traditional bodybuilding programs because the key movements and progressive overload of them are often lacking.

[jklunder]

Thanks, guys.

1. A lot of my problems are emotional. I am 35 years old. In the past, I tried too many conflicting things, and just have been discouraged.

When I worked so hard, for years, and sacrificed so much (in terms of never eating any delicious food, etc.), I never seemed to get more than average results.

A lot of it is my own discouragement, etc. from not just forgetting about past mistakes and really working hard and sacrificing again.

Heck, 15 years ago, on a strict diet of no sugar, saturated fat, alcohol, I got 2% bf on the three point caliper method, but still no six pack, etc.

When you work hard and sacrifice as much as I did, but still fell short, that did not feel good. Contrast that to some of my friends, who have physiques of Greek Gods, even without much effort.

2. For me, at 5'8", totally detrained, probably 30%+ bodyfat, etc. many things will work, simply because it forces my body to adapt.

I know, simply exercising more (once gyms reopen), keeping protein high, carbs and fats in moderation, and watching calories will produce results over time.

3. I do not mean to answer the same questions again and again. I guess I am just trying to find what works best, in a scientific way.

4. Rather than just outlining my thoughts, I do think discussion, etc. has a point.

While I almost never trust something that I see on Clickbank or TV, etc. I do think Beachbody's Insanity, and Rick Kasejl's "Unlock Your Hips" taught me something I did not know before, that is relevant and effective.

a. As soon as the gyms open, I will do the Rick Kasejl "Unlock Your Hips" before and during weight training.

b. For weight training, I will do SS, and add some burnouts and supersets to the final set. I simply believe that causes some more hypertrophy.

c. For diet, I like the low fat diet, I think that will do for now.

5. Does anyone have stories of trying so many things, then finally finding what worked? Maybe that can get me to get over discouragement.

[Satch12879]

No offense, but you’ve been asking the same thing for a decade and getting the same answers for a decade. You’ve also been saying you’re going to do the same thing for a decade.

I think it might be time to hire a coach if just to break this mental cycle you appear to be in.