Adding pullups and cleans?

[Steve Cox]

Okay, have a question concerning my NLP. I just began the program coming from more "traditional" lifting, meaning a trying to use push-pull-leg split bodybuilding program for strength training. Yeah I know I wasn't really sure what kind of program I wanted until I found this site and its Youtube page.

Anyway, I'd better start by saying that no I haven't read the books yet as they're still in the mail for delivery later this week. But I did start the program using the Android app, and am in my second week. At present I can't do an unassisted pullup or chinup like I used to, had some back injuries the last 10 years that prevented me from exercising for a while. And I am still unable to figure out how to clean properly, and after watching your how-to and in depth videos, I'm not sure I've ever in my lift been able to do a proper clean. The only way I've been able to do them is to clean the bar, but holding it as I would for a military press, not the proper position I know.

So should I stay with the level one NLP, and not add in the clean and pullups into my workout until I can perform them unassisted? I am currently working on by pullups on my off days, Tuesday and Thursday, using the system both you and Alan Thrall show for how to build back up to unassisted pullups. Or should I not be doing this on my down days? Are these things covered in the book?

Finally, are there ways to train myself to work up to doing a proper clean? Right now when my arms in the correct horizontal position, my wrists are nearly in the center of my neck. Even if I shift my arms outward, the bar is against my throat nearly choking me; and my hands are still too far back to get my fingers under the bar as they'd have to bend backward a bit more than 90 degrees. I can't imagine throwing the bar up and having it hit my throat with weight attached, and how that would feel.

[Matt James]

How long ago did you start the program? You wouldn't need to add cleans immediately as long as you're able still able to recover from deadlifting every workout. So it can wait until you get the book.

You're going to have to experiment with grip width in order to figure out the rack position. I have long forearms so my grip is about a handwidth out from the edge of the knurl. Regardless, the bar has to be sitting on the delts in the rack position. If you can't make that work due to your anthropometry, you may need to learn to power snatch instead. But I'd spend more time watching the instructional videos and reading the clean chapter in the book several times.
That should also help clear up the misconception that the bar could ever hit you in the throat at the top of the clean.

[Hayden-William Courtland]

Assuming you don't want to hire a coach to guide you through everything, you can start by doing Deadlifts every day with small jumps and then read the PC section of the book right away when it arrives. If you want to practice Power Cleans on your own now, you can, but make sure you watch some videos and stay light.

The rack position is often the limiting factor for doing cleans and as Matt said, many people aren't well built to rack it. If elbows up has it in your neck, your only options are to widen your grip and bit and/or start external rotation stretches to artificially shorten your forearm. This will only go so far though, and depending on how you are built, it might not be enough.

Other options are rows, power snatches, and pull-ups. If you are going to choose one right now, I would work on your pull-ups, but again, you can hold off on them until the DL needs to be alternated with another movement for recovery.

[Steve Cox]

Matt and Hayden, thank you both for your responses. That helps me out quite a bit in how to proceed forward. I am just now coming up on the end of my second week on the program after finding and moving over to it and I didn't know if the app was going to make me move to the next phase or if I should just continue as I am for a while. Your inputs helped and for how to train and plan.

Matt, as for the clean, when I get the bar setting on top of my front delt (with my arms straight out to find position as shown in the how-to videos), my wrist is directly above the bar. Even if I move my forearms and hands 6 inches laterally outward, which is painful, the best I can get is my thumb under the bar. So I'm guessing that if I want to do a clean, the best I can do is bring the bar up to a press position (which is incorrect), or as you two suggest, go to a snatch when the time comes, which does leave the press part out.

Lastly, regarding pullups (or chin-ups which your videos seem to suggest you prefer), I'm reading your responses to suggest that I should wait until time to add them into the circuit to begin working on building up to unassisted and then transition to unassisted, all done as part of the program. Hope I'm not misreading you here.

Thanks again.
Steve

[Matt James]

With regard to the clean, forgive me if I'm misunderstanding you here: are you trying to grip the bar in the rack position? It should be sitting on your fingers, maybe just the fingertips.

As far as chins I agree with HWC. Add them in when you quit deadlifting each workout. A stronger deadlift will make the transition to unassisted chins smoother, but for right now you should be focusing on your deadlift. It likely won't be that long anyway.

[Steve Cox]

No Matt, I'm not trying to grip the bar in the rack position, just trying to be able to get my fingertips underneath. The problem I have is I can't get my fingers close to being under the bar. My books just came in the mail today so I'll read through and see what they have to say on cleaning. If I need to, I'll try to get a photo to post, but that might be difficult. But like I said above, when the bar is sitting on the front delts in its proper position, my wrists are literally directly above the bar. I would have to shift my forearms at least 6 inches laterally outward to allow my fingertips to touch the bar from underneath and doing that is painful. Also, by this point when trying to get my fingertips to touch, the bar is pushing hard against my neck. The only way I've ever been able to clean and how I had to learn is to bring the bar into the press position, and I know that's not the proper move. I'll read and see if there's anything I can unlearn and change here.

[Nikola Blagojevic]

I would have to shift my forearms at least 6 inches laterally outward to allow my fingertips to touch the bar from underneath and doing that is painful.

I struggled with the rack position too. I've been successful taking a pretty wide grip - about the same as my bench grip - and even then my elbows are more down than forward. When I catch the clean, I have my index, middle, and ring fingers just barely under the bar.

At the bottom of the press, is the bar sitting on your deltoids? For me, the bar floats an inch or two above.

[Steve Cox]

Same here on presses, the bar is an inch or so above the delts. While I was reading up on cleaning last night, I was trying some bar only rack positions, and managed after doing some stretching to get myself very close to a rack position. The stretches in the book, along with a couple I found online seem to help, especially since I noticed my arm joints were really tight the last couple workouts (Wed and today) when holding the squat bar. I definitely see some flexibility work coming. Also, once I did get into an almost acceptable but not good clean position the bar was actually resting on the very ends of my collarbone where it meets the shoulder, which tells me more presses are in order first to build my delts for padding to accept the bar.

Anyway, from what I read last night, and found on Youtube for stretching guidance, I believe now that I have some proper guidance this is a do-able exercise. And I'm at the moment in no rush; I'm taking the NLP phase one or block one slowly to get the fundamentals down really good first, while also restoring the strength I've lost these last 10 years.

Thanks for all the replies, guidance on the NLP and the pointers all.

Steve