Considerations for a late intermediate/advanced TM run Considerations for a late intermediate/advanced TM run - Page 2

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Thread: Considerations for a late intermediate/advanced TM run

  1. #11
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    • wichita falls texas december seminar 2020
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    So a progression like this doesn't make sense and hypothetical lifter should just lower rep ranges and keep weights going up on intensity day regardless of fatigue?

    Volume Day
    wk 0: 405x5x5
    wk 1: 315x3x3
    wk 2: 315x5x5
    wk 3: 350x5x5
    wk 4: 390x5x5
    wk 5: 410x5x5
    wk 6: repeat cycle going up 5-10 lb

    Light day
    2x5 at 90% of volume day on weeks 1-3, and 80% on weeks 4-5

    Intensity day
    wk 0: 420x5 (very tired from previous cycle)
    wk 1: 435x5 (ties old PR after deload on volume day)
    wk 2: 440x5 (PR)
    wk 3: 445x5 (PR)
    wk 4: 435x5 (tired)
    wk 5: 425x5 (very tired)
    wk 6: 440 or 445x5, PRs again on weeks 7 and/or 8

  2. #12
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    Not for a 30 year male who is 5'11" 199 squatting under 400 lb and deadlifting under 500 lb. Try pushing up to 210 and see if that helps.

  3. #13
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    I'm by no means a programming expert, but it looks from my seat that the variations in stress within the same week don't line up, or to be more precise, the stress doses vary wildly on some weeks and not much at all on others. Then there's a huge variation between weeks. Like, I can see very clearly what weeks you're setting PRs on intensity day and also see, I think, why you're beat up on other weeks.

    Just spitballing here.

  4. #14
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    I would agree with this. Extraneous complexity

  5. #15
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    I don't really see this as a case of complexity rearing it's ugly head just for it's own sake.

    The volume day cycle is copy paste from a recent post on Andy Baker's blog. I didn't really gave much tought to the percentages when writing this example, just made sure that the deload was very light and the increases in weight were somewhat even. The idea or reseting volume day stress load is discussed in almost every TM article, and there are many different suggestions on how to do it.

    Keeping reps and sets the same, except for one week, and just varying load seems like the most straightforward way to do this for me... Way more simple than doing one block of volume day + speed work and another block of speed work + intensity day, an example which is laid out in PPST.

    As for the intensity day being a PR or not, I'd say is just a matter of readiness on that given day, no need to micromanage it... Rip's article on the TM says on intensity day, the lifter should aim for one set of fahve that is heavier than monday's 5x5. This should preferably be a 5RM or "within 2% of it", but if form breakdown occurs, "you picked the wrong number". I may be wrong, but I read that as "lift heavy, within what's possible".

    Finally, regarding weekly variations of stress, the example has more or less the same weekly variation that is prescribed for the standard program. As I said on the first post, at week six, the lifter could keep going up in weight, perhaps for a few more weeks. That would be indicated be continuing to set PRs on intensity day (meaning stress is manageable within the week). If a second or third deload becomes necessary, the lifter could just run volume day in cycles and reap the beneffits of the deload on intensity day 2-3 weeks out of 5, instead of weekly, as previously.

    I can't see why this would be ubercomplex, it's just " failed intensity day: deload volume day, ramp up to a new volume PR and set intensity PRs while you're still fresh, then see what happens from there..."

  6. #16
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    OK, this is my reasoning just from your numbers. Look at the offsets between the volume stressor and the intensity stressor solely on a weight on the bar basis:

    Week 1: 405/420 = 3.6%
    Week 2: 315/435 = 27.6% (PR week)
    Week 3: 315/440 = 28.0% (PR week)
    Week 4: 350/445 = 21.3% (PR week)
    Week 5: 390/435 = 10.3%
    Week 6: 410/425 = 3.5%

    You are "very tired" on the weeks where the weight offset is 10% or less; you are making PRs on weeks where the weight offset is greater than 20%. And then you get stuck in this cycle. This indicates that your volume day stress is too much to recover from on the low offset weeks, while the intensity day stress is acting as the primary stressor on the high offset weeks, instead of a complementary stressor along with the volume day. What you're doing when you drop the volume day weight is essentially peaking on intensity day, until that stops working because your stress is insufficient to allow you to progress any further.

    Have you tried cycling rep ranges on intensity day, i.e, from 5s to 3s to 2s to singles and then starting over?

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satch12879 View Post
    You are "very tired" on the weeks where the weight offset is 10% or less; you are making PRs on weeks where the weight offset is greater than 20%. And then you get stuck in this cycle.
    I think the key concept here is the duration of the overload event. LP presumes it lasts 48-72h. Standard TM presumes it lasts one week. I'd say this volume day cycle presumes it lasts something around 3-5 weeks, since it doesn't take other things into account by itself.

    The offset from VD to ID is not planned, but sort of auto-regulated, and PRs happen when fatigue dissipates and the strength adaptation can be manifested (just like standard TM does with light day).

    Quote Originally Posted by Satch12879 View Post
    This indicates that your volume day stress is too much to recover from on the low offset weeks, while the intensity day stress is acting as the primary stressor on the high offset weeks, instead of a complementary stressor along with the volume day.
    I defined arbitrarily that this program would apply to a late intermediate/advanced trainee. I believe is better to frame this as "by week 4-5, the accumulation of stress requires a deload in order to manifest new levels of strength". In this case, intensity day still complements weekly tonnage, just not as PR every week.


    Quote Originally Posted by Satch12879 View Post
    What you're doing when you drop the volume day weight is essentially peaking on intensity day, until that stops working because your stress is insufficient to allow you to progress any further.
    It's pretty much deload and peak, as standard TM does with light day, just over a longer timeframe. I wouldn't say "until that stops working", since the plan is to ramp up VD again, and not to keep strees low and milk ID PRs in a state of low fatigue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satch12879 View Post
    Have you tried cycling rep ranges on intensity day, i.e, from 5s to 3s to 2s to singles and then starting over?
    I tried those in the past and had a pretty bad experience until I started deloading volume day. I'm currently running a TM program with 5's for squat, 2x3 for the bench, 1's for the press and 2x5 deadlifts on volume day. I started with LP and very low weights since I got hit by a sickness + covid shutdown combo that comprised almost two months. Now I'm about 18 weeks in the TM split and starting my second VD deload.

    There were a couples of weeks where I'd change rep ranges on the fly. Last friday I did 3x2 on bench, but I'll probably just keep the weight and do 2x3 this week. I was very tired and my left biceps tendon was bothering me...

    My reasoning to deload VD and keep rep ranges the same is that I seem to have found good combinations of sets and reps for all four lifts, and if all I have to do to keep increasing then is lower the weights on VD once in a while and not push for a PR on ID if I feel like crap, then I see no need to do anything else... I'm slowly gaining weight and already hit PRs on VD or ID on all four lifts...

    I can't finish this post now. I'll live it at this and edit later...

  8. #18
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    Again, I don't think your SRA cycle is a 5 week long cycle. This breakdown works in certain situations I am just not convinced it applies to your situation. That said, there is no way for me to know because I do not follow your training and am going off your self reported snapshot here.

  9. #19
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    Is the SRA cycle still 5 weeks if I hit 2-3 PRs during that time frame?

    Off-topic: Am I missing something, or it's not possible to edit previous posts?

  10. #20
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    starting strength coach development program
    Now I am confused. On your first post the weight did not get heavier between week 0 and week 5. Let's try this. Post up an example with your numbers.

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