Late Intermediate Programming for the Deadlift

[Schrodinger23]

I'm a 6'4" male that is 42 years old and a weight of 215. After running a novice linear progression a couple of years ago I ended up with a deadlift of 340 x 5 x 1, squat of 285 x 5 x 3, bench of 170 x 5 x 3 and a press of 115 x 5 x 3. I fooled around with different intermediate programming on the presses and settled on the compressed Texas method, which has worked great. I just recently hit 160 for 8 singles and I have a strict press with no hips to get it going. For the squats I have run a few cycles of Heavy/Light/Medium, which has worked great. I started with 5 x 3 on the heavy day and tapered it down to 4 x 3, 3 x 3, 2 x 3, 1 x 5, 1 x 3 and then a single, as necessary trying to catch it before I fail, as necessary. I think that the next cycle, when this cycle ends pretty soon I might try 5 x 4 to start on the heavy day.

For the deadlift I only train it once per week on my light squat day and alternate between pullups and chinups on my heavy and medium squat days. The last time I ran a cycle of the deadlift I did the following:

340 for 5 reps
345 for 5 reps
350 for 3 reps, then 2 reps after a 5 minute rest in between
355 for 3 reps, then 2 reps after a 5 minute rest in between
.
.
.
385 for 3 reps, then 2 reps after a 5 minute rest in between
390 for 2 reps, then 2 reps after a 8 minute rest in between
395 for 2 reps, then 1 rep after a 8 minute rest in between
400 for 1 rep, then 1 rep after a 8 minute rest in between
405 for 1 rep

After that cycle I de-loaded significantly and re-ran it:

330 for 5 reps
335 for 5 reps
.
.
.
385 for 5 reps
390 for 5 reps
390 for 5 reps (repeated since, on the last rep I lost my upper back extension)
395 for 5 reps
395 for 5 reps (repeated since, on the last rep I lost my upper back extension)
400 for 4 reps, then 1 rep after a 90 second rest in between
405 for 3 reps, then 2 reps after a 5 minute rest in between
410 for 3 reps, then 2 reps after a 5 minute rest in between
.
.
.
430 for 3 reps, then 2 reps after a 5 minute rest in between
435 for 2 reps (failed 3rd rep), rested 90 seconds and tried 3 rep again and failed, rested 5 minutes and did 2 reps
440 for 1 rep, rested 5 minutes, 1 rep, rested 5 minutes, failed 3rd rep
450 failed a single, rested 8 minutes and failed another single.

I could have likely hit 445, but since 440 lbs is 200 kg and 450lbs is another kind of milestone to hit, I didn't want to end the cycle on 445 lbs, so I went for 450 lbs instead.


Anyways, I could de-load next week to 375 x 5 x 1 on the deadlift and try to see if I can run it up to the upper 400's for a single, just like I did in the previous two cycles. Or, would it be better to just replace the deadlift with halting deadlifts one week and rack pulls the next week and then alternating between them as I run a linear progression? My gym is at a university that has several of the standard Hammer Strength racks with platforms built under them. The lowest position on the safety's line up just under my knee cap, which means the bar would be in the lower portion of my knee cap. I thought we wanted rack pulls to have the bar positioned slightly under the knee cap and halting deadlifts to stop slightly over the top of the knee cap. I could place a 45 pound plate or two under my feet to raise me up, but I'm not sure how well this will work. I thought about buying some blocks made specifically for rack pulls (block pulls), but I don't have any interest in lugging those across campus twice per month, or leaving them at the gym where the varsity athletes will do all kinds of stupid things with them, like let's see how far we can throw them, or let's see what happens when we piss on them, or who knows what else they will come up with. This is my apprehension for switching away from deadlifts. I could switch around my days, so that my light squat day is on Saturday, which would align when I normally deadlift for the week, so that I can park my car right next to the gym and easily walk in some block that I buy for block pulls (rack pulls). If I lift during the weekday's I have to park a little bit away from the gym and walk there, which would make it difficult to carry the blocks for block pulls across campus. Any suggestions?

[Mark Rippetoe]

At 6'4" and 215, you are quite underweight, and have not actually finished your NLP.

A Clarification | Mark Rippetoe

[Robert Santana]

Any suggestions?

1) Make your case concisely

2) Get up to 240 yesterday and finish your LP

[Schrodinger23]

1) Make your case concisely

2) Get up to 240 yesterday and finish your LP

I apologize. I tried to make sure to give enough detail, but somehow managed to still not give enough detail, yet use many many words in doing so. Let me try again.

Two years ago I ran the NLP at a Starting Strength gym. I'm 6'4" and 42 years old.

Starting numbers: Body Weight 165lbs, Squat 85lbs x 3 x 5, Press 45 lbs x 3 x 5, Bench 55 lbs x 3 x 5, Deadlift 155 lbs x 1 x 5.

The coach that did the introduction to the barbell lifts told me I needed to get up to 220lbs in bodyweight. I took him seriously and ate a full meal every two hours while I was awake for a total of around 8,000 calories per day. The primary coach that I worked with at the Starting Strength gym was different than the one who did the introduction to the lifts and said I was gaining weight too fast.

Ending numbers after 3 months: Body Weight 230lbs, Squat 286 lbs x 3 x 5 (on 292 I failed reps on the first set even repeating weight the next time ), Press 115 lbs x 3 x 5 (failed reps at 117 lbs several times), Bench 172 lbs x 3 x 5 (failed reps at 175), Deadlift 340 lbs x 1 x 5.

If I can add 20 pounds of bodyweight and run another linear progression that would be great, but I'm not sure how I would have ran it any differently than I did originally. Currently at my bodyweight of 215lbs I have a 37.5 inch waist. My dad had his first heart attack at age 49 and his younger brother had one in his mid to late 30's. I'm nervous with my family history of running up my waist close to or past 40 inches. I'll add the question about intermediate programming of the deadlift in another post later, so that this post doesn't get too long.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Why do you think your waist size causes heart attacks? Was your father a lifter? You are 6'4" with 37" waist -- do you think this is excessive?

[Schrodinger23]

Why do you think your waist size causes heart attacks? Was your father a lifter?

From the medical community, if I am understanding things correctly, for men when they look at large samples of the general population they are able to correlate waist size with increased risk of heart attack, stroke, high blood pressure, cancer, diabetes, etc. The high risk category is 40 inches and above, the low risk category is below 37 inches and between 37 and 40 inches is a slightly increased risk. I know that correlation doesn't mean causation. Also, I am not aware of if they were able to parse out athletes, lifters or people that are not sedentary, from any of these studies to see if an increased risk persists in this group. On the other hand, having a father and uncle with heart disease, doesn't help me from the genetic side of things.

Was my father a lifter? No. He had a very high stress job at the time, he smoked, didn't exercise, and at the time wasn't concerned about his diet. The meals he ate were mostly home cooked, but people didn't worry about limiting the amount of processed meats and such at the time. His younger brother, my uncle, was under similar circumstances when he had a heart attack. He was a lifter in his teens and 20's, but was not lifting actively when he was in his mid to late 30's when he had a heart attack.

I do get regular blood work done, once per year, looking for indications of anything to be concerned about related to heart disease and things have come back fine so far. I don't know if I'd want to keep a bunch of extra abdominal body fat on long term, but if you really think that it would make a big difference I can try for a year or two and see. I'm just not sure how I could run a novice linear progression (making progress two or three times per week) on any of the main lifts at this point, based on how things went when I ran the initial linear progression. I've had a to re-run a linear progression on lifts when I was sick for an extended period of time or on specific main lifts when there was an injury, but each time it runs its course where I need to transition to weekly progress pretty similar to the first time I ran the novice linear progression.

[Robert Santana]

Was my father a lifter? No. He had a very high stress job at the time, he smoked, didn't exercise, and at the time wasn't concerned about his diet. The meals he ate were mostly home cooked, but people didn't worry about limiting the amount of processed meats and such at the time. His younger brother, my uncle, was under similar circumstances when he had a heart attack. He was a lifter in his teens and 20's, but was not lifting actively when he was in his mid to late 30's when he had a heart attack. .

1) Neither your father or your brother were training when they had heart attacks and the medical community, at least the honest ones, will tell you that exercising and eating healthier bends the curve and is likely to delay a heart attack not prevent it from ever happening. Sometimes things do work out that way though if your relatives were completely unhealthy and there was a greater influence of environment over genetics. But if you are going to have a heart attack, these preventative measures will delay it so it happens later in life. How much later? No one knows the answer to that.

2) Does the epidemiological data consist of men who are 6'4"? It is safe to assume that the waistline of a man who is 6'4" is likely to be larger than that of a man who is 5'7" with the same body composition. You don't need to get over 40" but you aren't in the danger zone yet.

If I can add 20 pounds of bodyweight and run another linear progression that would be great, but I'm not sure how I would have ran it any differently than I did originally. Currently at my bodyweight of 215lbs I have a 37.5 inch waist. My dad had his first heart attack at age 49 and his younger brother had one in his mid to late 30's. I'm nervous with my family history of running up my waist close to or past 40 inches. I'll add the question about intermediate programming of the deadlift in another post later, so that this post doesn't get too long.

3) You left linear progress on the table by not pushing heavier. Drive your weight up as you approach your previous PRs and you'll see the needle move. If you get the numbers up there and decide you need to be lighter then your purposes for being in the weight room are no longer about getting strong.

I had a guy your height years back who started at 175 lb and pushed up to 240. Between 175 and 230 he'd constantly get stuck at a 275 squat, 175 bench press, and ~330 deadlift for 5s. His press was the only thing that seemed to move decently and I suspect it had to do with limb lengths. Literally as soon as he got passed 230 he finished his LP with a 315 squat, 405 deadlift, 225 bench press, and 170 lb press all for 5s. Not the most impressive numbers by powerlifting standards but quite the delta once he got his weight beyond a certain threshold. Leverage and size matter here. Remember, guys competing weighing 215 are <5'8". You aren't pursuing a career in competitive powerlifting, or at least i'm not gathering that you are, but those extreme data points are useful to gauge where you should be even for more modest results. I just had a guy who came in at 5'10-5'11' 150 and pushed up to 195 in 4 months. His stomach initially grew then shrank. He's doing quite well now and will make for a good case study in a few months when he finishes up his LP.

[Schrodinger23]

Does the epidemiological data consist of men who are 6'4"? It is safe to assume that the waistline of a man who is 6'4" is likely to be larger than that of a man who is 5'7" with the same body composition. You don't need to get over 40" but you aren't in the danger zone yet.

Very good point! This is the most convincing part of the argument. I will run my body weight up to 240lbs and see what happens. I only have two data points of my waist vs. bodyweight to go off of, but running a regression line on that it seems 240 lbs would put me right at a 40 inch waist. I'll see if the extra body weight helps for 6 or 12 months. If not, then I can cut. If it does, then keep it for it while.

You left linear progress on the table by not pushing heavier. Drive your weight up as you approach your previous PRs and you'll see the needle move. If you get the numbers up there and decide you need to be lighter then your purposes for being in the weight room are no longer about getting strong.

I could not eat anymore than I was, at 8,000 to 9,000 calories per day. This was maybe the hardest part of linear progression, putting on 65 pounds over the course of 3 months. Many meals I was sitting there for 45 minutes trying to choke it down, when my mind and body didn't want any more food. Almost like a perpetual eating contest.



Let me try to ask my question about programming now, that we have the body weight issue out of the way.

Current Intermediate Programming: Body weight is 215 lbs, my lifts last week were Squat at 345 lbs x 2 x 3, Press at 160 lbs x 8 x 1, Bench at 190 lbs x 3 x 2, Deadlift at 440 lbs for two singles

Monday: Bench 5 x 5 (approx 80% of intensity day), Heavy - Squat 3 x 5 (+5lbs), Chins 3x10
Wednesday: Press 5 x 5 (approx 80% of intensity day), Light - Squat 3 x 5 (80% of heavy day), Deadlift 1 x 5 (+ 5lbs)
Friday: Press 10 x 1 (+ 2 lbs), Bench 1 x 5 (+ 3 lbs), Medium Squat 3 x 5 (90% of heavy day), Pullups 3x10




Previous Two Deadlift Cycles

(1) 340 for 5 reps
345 for 5 reps
350 for 3 reps, then 2 reps after a 5 minute rest in between
355 for 3 reps, then 2 reps after a 5 minute rest in between
.
.
.
385 for 3 reps, then 2 reps after a 5 minute rest in between
390 for 2 reps, then 2 reps after a 8 minute rest in between
395 for 2 reps, then 1 rep after a 8 minute rest in between
400 for 1 rep, then 1 rep after a 8 minute rest in between
405 for 1 rep


(2) 330 for 5 reps
335 for 5 reps
.
.
.
385 for 5 reps
390 for 5 reps
390 for 5 reps (repeated since, on the last rep I lost my upper back extension)
395 for 5 reps
395 for 5 reps (repeated since, on the last rep I lost my upper back extension)
400 for 4 reps, then 1 rep after a 90 second rest in between
405 for 3 reps, then 2 reps after a 5 minute rest in between
410 for 3 reps, then 2 reps after a 5 minute rest in between
.
.
.
430 for 3 reps, then 2 reps after a 5 minute rest in between
435 for 2 reps (failed 3rd rep), rested 90 seconds and tried 3 rep again and failed, rested 5 minutes and did 2 reps
440 for 1 rep, rested 5 minutes, 1 rep, rested 5 minutes, failed 3rd rep
450 failed a single, rested 8 minutes and failed another single.


Should I reset deadlift to 375 lbs x 1 x 5 and re-run this similarly to see if I can add another 40 to 50 lbs to my previous PR? Or is it time to switch out the deadlift with halting deadlifts and rack pulls alternated week to week? Currently, I lift at a university gym where they don't have blocks for block pulls and the lowest rack position on the Hammer Strength squat stands put the bar at my lower knee cap. Is this too high for rack pulls? Any easy equipment to buy and bring to do rack pulls at a public gym?