After SS NLP, how might I respond to hypertrophy training? When should I cut?

[ReidBennett]

I know this is a strength forum but I plan on training for hypertrophy after starting strength.

Now that half of the people reading this have already left, I'm a 21 year old, 5' 10" white male, 225lb body weight, 41" naval/hip crease measurement. I have gotten to the point where I have introduced the light squat day, so I am likely in the last couple months of my NLP. I am in no rush to end it as I can see the inherent benefit of continuing to add 5lb as long as possible. Training work set weights are: Squat 265, Bench 205, Dead 330. As said, I'll take this is long as possible but I understand that I probably will not end this program with a 405 squat, as I am less responsive to training. I have little athletic background, lifelong sleeping problems (before you ask if I have tried something to alleviate this problem, yes, I have tried it), and a hard labor job.

I am at a high body fat and would like to change that fact soon. However, I feel that I would probably respond very well to a hypertrophy program after SS, having built somewhat of a strength base by then. If this "feeling" is correct, I would rather hold off on cutting body fat until after I take good advantage of my strength base to build some muscle size. Not sure if this feeling is correct though and that is why I am here.

If hypertrophy is a better idea than cutting after SS, I am also in search of a hypertrophy program, preferably centered around compound movements to get more bang-for-my-buck given my risk of over fatiguing. I train in a home gym with a low ceiling, so no standing OHP. I own a squat rack, DL platform, barbell, ez curl bar, and an adjustable bench. I want to build general muscle size, not focusing on particular muscles until I become more experienced in hypertrophy training and programming.

Too long, didn't read: Do trainees respond well to hypertrophy programs after finishing starting strength? Is slowly cutting body fat after Starting Strength a good or bad idea (32 bmi, 41" waist measurement)? What is a good general hypertrophy program for a home gym?

Thank you for your advice in advance.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Aesthetics and Training | Mark Rippetoe

The First Three Questions | Mark Rippetoe

[Frank_B]

Too long, didn't read: Do trainees respond well to hypertrophy programs after finishing starting strength? Is slowly cutting body fat after Starting Strength a good or bad idea (32 bmi, 41" waist measurement)? What is a good general hypertrophy program for a home gym?

It sounds to me like you're more concerned with "being lean" than you are with hypertrophy. What you're doing now is (and will continue to be) excellent for hypertrophy.

[CommanderFun]

If hypertrophy is a better idea than cutting after SS, I am also in search of a hypertrophy program, preferably centered around compound movements to get more bang-for-my-buck given my risk of over fatiguing.

Get the grey book. If you are truly nearing the end of the novice program you should get it anyway. There are intermediate program examples that utilize "hypertrophy" type assistance work following barbell strength work. I would not expect something incredible from that kind of training, though. I'd exhaust novice training and maybe even early intermediate training before going after a cut if I were you. You don't sound like you're ridiculously fat (though it's hard to tell body composition just from basic height and weight numbers). If you're just looking to cut down to "abs" levels, keep in mind doing so will make your PRs disappear. So get them as high as you can before you try and do that.

[JJ23]

As said, I'll take this is long as possible but I understand that I probably will not end this program with a 405 squat, as I am less responsive to training.

You don't know this. I will say it feels like you added a light day early. Did you fail a work set or just want an easier day on Wednesday? If you failed then it sounds like you're not recovering, likely driven by fear of eating. Are you eating enough protein?

Changing your program to a less intense one won't help you lean out, trust me -lots of trial and error here.

[LuzTheBuz]

I've found that at least attempting to cut out fat and carbs in my diet helps at least keep my BW under control. At least aiming for the highest amount of protein with the smallest amount of fat and sugar is my current goal. Even very lean meat has a decent amount of fat, and fat free milk still has a good amount of carbs, so its not like I am cutting them out entirely, just limiting them.

[CommanderFun]

You don't know this. I will say it feels like you added a light day early. Did you fail a work set or just want an easier day on Wednesday? If you failed then it sounds like you're not recovering, likely driven by fear of eating. Are you eating enough protein?

Sometimes there's only so much food you can throw at the recovery problem until it just doesn't help anymore. Granted he's young, so you might be onto something here. But I find I start to run into recovery issues working at a novice pace at around a 250 work weight on the squat, and need to dial back the progression. I've tried pushing it forward before, and ended up doing more harm than good. It happens. Not everyone is capable of LPing to huge numbers.

[ReidBennett]

Thank you all for the replies thus far.

I'm probably 25-30% body fat. By training for aesthetics, I should clarify that I am not interested in the aesthetics that you might find in a fitness magazine. I'd like to get down to, say, 22% body fat or less some time soon. I think being well muscled at a healthy body weight is a good look for any man to have.

I am eating a lot of carbs and protein, probably averaging just over 4000 calories a day. Yogurt, eggs, lean meat, rice, oats etc.

I'd like to reach a healthy body fat some time soon, but I am willing to accept putting on more muscle post Starting Strength instead, if there is an elevated benefit to gain muscle after building a strength base. That's the root of my question. If cutting means that I miss out on taking advantage of my strength base to put on a good amount of muscle in my early intermediate training, then the cut can wait. During a cut, I would continue to lift heavy compound movements and just slowly cut calories as I lose body weight, averaging about a pound a week.

My hypertrophy program is likely going to have more sets instead of more reps per set, keeping the weight heavy. I think that there is a lot of scientific evidence to support that as a good way to build muscle.

Which should come first, an intermediate bulk or cut?

I will scrap the light squat day idea and just reset the weight again. If I was wrong about my NLP potential and I stall at 405, I'll be very happy to be wrong. If I stall at 335 and then stall again at 345, I'm not going to try and nurse the program for something I won't be able to recover enough for. I sleep as my body will let me (average of 4 hours out of 9 hours laying in bed) and eat plenty enough to put on muscle.

Again, thank you Coach Rip and everybody else for your insights.

[Mark Rippetoe]

I'd like to reach a healthy body fat some time soon, but I am willing to accept putting on more muscle post Starting Strength instead, if there is an elevated benefit to gain muscle after building a strength base. That's the root of my question. If cutting means that I miss out on taking advantage of my strength base to put on a good amount of muscle in my early intermediate training, then the cut can wait.

You just don't understand. The propaganda is strong, and you do not believe me.

[CommanderFun]

I sleep as my body will let me (average of 4 hours out of 9 hours laying in bed)

Well shit, there's your problem. You need to get more than that for sure. Sleep is the most productive time for recovering and building up better muscles. Also, if you are actually 30% bodyfat (not sure what you're basing it on), you can probably stand to go into a small deficit and still build strength up. I haven't done this myself, when I cut weight I tend to do it hard simply because it's easier in terms of meal planning, but I have seen success reported and will probably try it myself the next time I wanna trim down some. If you've been trying to compensate for a lack of sleep by eating more food, it just won't work. You need the sleep. I always like to explain the process of training like building a house. The actual training is really you just giving your workers instructions. Food intake is your budget for the project (in terms of pay for the workers, and building materials). But SLEEP is the time where the bulk of the work actually gets done. You need all three of these things.