Squat Programming as Advanced Novice - What should my expectations be?

[John Fioravanti]

Hi all,

This post is concerning squat programming as an advanced novice.

My squat started at a conservative 125 lbs. Here are my current numbers at week 27:

Age: 23 years
Height: 6’1”
BW: 216 lbs
Squat: 330 lbs (top set; 300 lbs drop sets)
Dead: 385 lbs
Bench: 208 lbs (stalled)
Press: 129 lbs (stalled)
Chins: 11,8,6 (last workout)

Food: 4,250 calories (~250 g protein avg)
Sleep: 7-8 hours
Rest b/w squats: 10:00 minutes

Brief summary: I broke through a wall at 295 x 3 x 5 and progressed with better hip drive up to 320 x 3 x 5 at which point my back locked up (severely, for a few days). I figured a reset was a good idea and also realized that I had been using a light day for 4-8 weeks already. I wasn’t very confident in my ability to recover and surpass 320 without a small programming change. On the next run up, at 320, I started using back-off sets. I expected to get 2-4 more weeks out of this change, but a week later, at a top set of 330 x 5, the bar is rolling up my back and my back feels like it’s folding over, not in extension. Maybe it was a bit of an off day, but it feels like a limit set, like I am going to run into a dead end sooner than expected.

On the squat, I’ve taken a lot of advice from Nick and Ray’s recent podcast on ‘How to do the NLP.’ Since I train alone, and squats are by far the hardest lift for me, I have opted for the more conservative approach to programming that Nick recommended: gradual changes that avoid failure under the bar.

In my last programming post, Rip said I should gain 20 lbs and get my squat to 405. Did he mean doing 3 x 5 across all the way up?... How on God’s green earth is that possible (for me)? I’ve been trying to follow his mentality and have since put on ~15 lbs of bodyweight, ~40-50 lbs on my squat, and 85 lbs on my deadlift. My bench and press can continue to progress if I add more stress and my deadlift has been doing (surprisingly) fine.

I’m trying to understand what my NLP squat potential is (ie, what's the number I’m shooting for to end me LP?) and when it’s appropriate to move on in programming?

If I should be expected to get to ~405 (or even ~365), what’s the limiting factor here? Am I not eating enough? I’ve been gaining weight. Form issue? I think it’s decent. I’m not a natural strength athlete or explosive; am I just at the end of my rope on the squat and am not the best squatter?

Here’s a video of my top set at 330. It was my first set of the day: Video here.

I'd appreciate some guidance from a coach and/or other more advanced trainees and am happy to have a discussion.

[Satch12879]

I think your stance is a hair wide. There's a little upper back rounding and going over the top as you start the movement. This is occurring as a substitute for you not leaning over at the start of the descent. You think you're leaning over, but you're not.

23 years old, 6'-1", and 216 lbs is something that you need to work on and will be one of the big comments from either Rip or the coaches.

[John Fioravanti]

Thanks for the response. I think I will review some materials on Squat technique (foot stance, grip, elbows, etc.) to try to tighten it up and will see if I can get some more progress out of the squat before I move on while I also progress my other lifts. Might look into coaching too.

Yes, I've heard Rip and coaches say a guy my height could easily carry somewhere between 240-270. At 216, I look very different, but am not even that muscular yet.

[Mark Rippetoe]

A Clarification | Mark Rippetoe

[Jovan Dragisic]

Yes, I've heard Rip and coaches say a guy my height could easily carry somewhere between 240-270. At 216, I look very different, but am not even that muscular yet.

You just think you are not muscular, because you are looking at yourself in the mirror and not seeing as much muscle as you think you should have. Your legs and ass are pretty muscular, but you don't see them. You will need to gain weight in order to progress the upper body lifts. Once your bench hits about 240 and your press 180 for three sets of five, you will see quite a bit of muscle in your upper body too, so in the mirror, at the expense of some more fat. You will look better though.

[John Fioravanti]

I am pleased to be another person to receive A Clarification | Mark Rippetoe as a forum answer.

My numbers mirror what the trainee is supposed to be doing (bodyweight up 45 lbs from 170 to 215 and squat up 200 lbs from 125), so I am going to see if I can work out any more gains over the next few weeks (especially on upper body lifts) and then consider moving on to other programming.

Thanks, Mark.

I think you're right on all that. Somedays, I think I look muscular, other days not so much.

Yes, I can tell I definitely have some room to grow my upper body. I look forward to it. I'm starting benching and pressing twice a week this week instead of on alternating days.

[Jovan Dragisic]

I'm starting benching and pressing twice a week this week instead of on alternating days.

Look, don't fuck with the program just because you are impatient. Keep eating and squatting until you hit 405 for three sets of five, keep the deadlift ahead of the squat as now, and the rest will follow on its own.
As Rip often says, stop worrying about how you look and focus on what you are doing.

[John Fioravanti]

I respect the advice and agree with you generally, but I think adding stress to my upper body lifts makes sense. Following Nick's and Ray's discussion, I've reset once after stalling on bench and press with little resulting progress, despite gaining bodyweight. Resetting again seems unproductive; I feel recovered every session, yet am unable to complete sets, especially on the bench. I am also excited to train those lifts twice a week rather than alternating, so I see no issues here in adding additional stress. Hopefully, this analysis isn't foolish.

Broadly speaking, I won't deviate from the LP and will keep driving all my lifts linearly using the tricks of 3x3 and novice taper in PPST3. Thank you for your input, guys.

[francesco.decaro]

I respect the advice and agree with you generally, but I think adding stress to my upper body lifts makes sense. Following Nick's and Ray's discussion, I've reset once after stalling on bench and press with little resulting progress, despite gaining bodyweight. Resetting again seems unproductive; I feel recovered every session, yet am unable to complete sets, especially on the bench. I am also excited to train those lifts twice a week rather than alternating, so I see no issues here in adding additional stress. Hopefully, this analysis isn't foolish.

Broadly speaking, I won't deviate from the LP and will keep driving all my lifts linearly using the tricks of 3x3 and novice taper in PPST3. Thank you for your input, guys.

This might be useful too

Press and Bench Press Programming - Getting and Staying Unstuck - YouTube