When to lower linear increase?

[dyinglight]

I still have confusion as to how and when to decrease the constant by which to increase during the novice phase. I read both books a few times, read the 3 questions article a dozen times, etc., and just re-read p.304-305 again (and 301 on the failure to do all 5 reps) before posting this.

What is the factor which determines when to decrease the increase? Is it the difficulty of completing the sets relative to the prior workout? If you fail to complete a set, seems you should just do the same set next workout, but is that also a signal for the early novice to start cutting the increase? PPST explains in p92-93 two scenarios, but in both cases the deload is followed by resuming the increases by the same amount previous, so no decrease in the linear increase, EXCEPT for the press which has initial increases of 5lbs (see for example p.93 weeks 3 to 5), but then without any failures in the sets the 5 lbs goes to 2 lbs (or 2.5).

So what caused the choice that this was the workout to go from 5 lbs increments to 2.5 lbs? I'm specifically asking because I'm thinking it's time I reduce my overhead press. My last few workouts were as such:

95 lbs: 5,5,5 reps
100 lbs ; 5,5,4 reps
100 lbs: 5,5,5 reps
105 lbs: 5,5,5 reps
110 lbs: 5,5,4 reps

My next workout, from my best estimate, should be to do 110 lbs times 5,5,5. I'm thinking of making the next workset after just 112.5 lbs. Is this sensible or should I go for 115 lbs? Should I just go for 112.5 lbs the next workout or is that greed? Were the two 5,5,4's enough to tell me that I should decrease the increase?

The books seem to stress more the importance of completing sets over increasing the weight, but I don't seem to identify a clear recommendation of when to start lowering the increases, in other words avoiding getting stuck in the first place by pre-emptively lowering the increase vs using the maximum benefit of the current linear increase constant.

Any help clarifying my confusion is appreciated.

Thank you.

[AndrewLewis]

As always, it depends.

I'll switch someone to 2.5lb increases on presses when I know they're doing everything else right and they've just slowed down. Sometimes, that's after they've failed, but hopefully it's before that.

However, I'd be curious to see your press technique seeing numbers like this (failed reps). That said, if you're technique is good, address The First Three Questions, and then switch to 2.5lb increases if the other two questions seem fine.

[LJBass]

I'm still running my LP, so not much experience.
Press started at 85, had a couple set backs at first with pain in the back around the bottom of the ribs. Worked on form and breathing, started wearing a belt. After restarting at 95 I went up to 125 without hiccup. Every workout getting harder, When I barely finished the 3rd set, and I do mean it was pausing about the forehead. I switched to 2.5# jumps as the book says to keep progress going. This was week 9. I continued the 2.5# jumps into week 14 were I started missing a rep here and there at 142.5#.... At this point I am taking Nick Delgadillo's advice of continuing the jumps and getting 15 reps however I can get them. This is week 17, I'm at 155# and the Sets looked like 4,4,4,3. The weight keeps going up. I suspect the next step is Pin-presses added in. Good luck.

[dyinglight]

I started at 45 lbs press, I could have maybe pressed more, but didn't want to risk it. I've spend the last couple years (since March 2020) sedentary and not really doing anything ever except sitting down or sleeping. I'm a maybe not that young. Not old, but past prime. I feel I could do 113 lbs 5,5,5, or maybe 114 lbs at full reps, but not 115. And my shoulders are in constant pain and strain since I started training in July. I might post all my sessions in the other section of the forum (I did train SS years ago, but didn't keep up).

Thank you all for your insight. I'm still not really sure how to program for tomorrow's session but I will get there.

What about the quantity of decrease? The press is supposed to decrease from 5 lbs to something less. Does it have to be 2, 2.5, 3 lbs? Could I try 4 lbs, or say 3.5 lbs and now it's linear progression of 3.5 lbs every session for however long as that is maintainable without a deload?

The book seems clearer on the squat and dead-lift, where it's clear that 5 lbs can be sustained for a very long time, but I definitely remember reading several experts on the forum (and maybe in the books, but I can't find the quote), that bellow 5 lbs increment on the squat may not be enough to activate the stress response.

Then considering the previous, could we reasonably lower the linear increase of the squat, when it comes to that keeping in mind rest, food and sleep, first decrease the increases to 8 lbs / session, until that comes to and end, then 7 lbs, and so on, as long as we can "milk" that beginner curve? Rather than go from 10 lbs to arbitrarily half? Or maybe not so arbitrarily, since the data may show that the curves of progression are optimal by halving.

I'm just curious and asking.

[dyinglight]

I ended up doing what the app suggested, which was 110 lbs 5,5,5 reps. The last rep of the last set, I thought I was going to pass out from the pressure. My vision actually started having black spots. I don't think I could have done 112.5 lbs 5,5,5, but then again who really knows. I need to find some micro-plates asap because 5 lbs increments are way too much for my overhead press at this point.

[Bill Anders]

I started at 45 lbs press, I could have maybe pressed more, but didn't want to risk it. I've spend the last couple years (since March 2020) sedentary and not really doing anything ever except sitting down or sleeping. I'm a maybe not that young. Not old, but past prime. I feel I could do 113 lbs 5,5,5, or maybe 114 lbs at full reps, but not 115.

It's great that you feel that you could do 5x3 at 113lbs and perhaps 114lbs, but can you? There's only one way to know, and that's to do it. This coming from a non-wishy-washy 54M who frequently experiences the humbling nature of the press.

And my shoulders are in constant pain and strain since I started training in July. I might post all my sessions in the other section of the forum (I did train SS years ago, but didn't keep up).

Constant pain? Do you have a verified medical situation? Even if you do, then you're doing something wrong. Post videos in the technique forum.

What about the quantity of decrease? The press is supposed to decrease from 5 lbs to something less. Does it have to be 2, 2.5, 3 lbs? Could I try 4 lbs, or say 3.5 lbs and now it's linear progression of 3.5 lbs every session for however long as that is maintainable without a deload?

The book seems clearer on the squat and dead-lift, where it's clear that 5 lbs can be sustained for a very long time, but I definitely remember reading several experts on the forum (and maybe in the books, but I can't find the quote), that bellow 5 lbs increment on the squat may not be enough to activate the stress response.

Then considering the previous, could we reasonably lower the linear increase of the squat, when it comes to that keeping in mind rest, food and sleep, first decrease the increases to 8 lbs / session, until that comes to and end, then 7 lbs, and so on, as long as we can "milk" that beginner curve? Rather than go from 10 lbs to arbitrarily half? Or maybe not so arbitrarily, since the data may show that the curves of progression are optimal by halving.

What is your training environment like? Are you at a commercial gym or at home? At a commercial gym, frittering over this is just mental masturbation, as you'll likely never have the same sets of plates on the bar from one workout to the next, and they are likely not true to their stated weight. So just go 2.5lbs (or 4lbs if you're so inclined), and do it.

If you are at home, then make sure that you know what each plate actually weighs, then use those exact same plates each time. Then you can start being concerned with the exact increments and know what you are actually lifting. But at this stage of your training, the correct answer is "more than you did last time." And while 1lb increases might work for you, you're wasting time reaching your potential. Leave those increases for when you're in your 70's or 80's.

I'm just curious and asking.

Of course. But these questions are buried here in the forums. It just may take more than a cursory search for you to find it.

Keep at it!

[dyinglight]

It's great that you feel that you could do 5x3 at 113lbs and perhaps 114lbs, but can you? There's only one way to know, and that's to do it. This coming from a non-wishy-washy 54M who frequently experiences the humbling nature of the press.

Constant pain? Do you have a verified medical situation? Even if you do, then you're doing something wrong. Post videos in the technique forum.

What is your training environment like? Are you at a commercial gym or at home? At a commercial gym, frittering over this is just mental masturbation, as you'll likely never have the same sets of plates on the bar from one workout to the next, and they are likely not true to their stated weight. So just go 2.5lbs (or 4lbs if you're so inclined), and do it.

And while 1lb increases might work for you, you're wasting time reaching your potential. Leave those increases for when you're in your 70's or 80's.

Of course. But these questions are buried here in the forums. It just may take more than a cursory search for you to find
Keep at it!

I just want to say that I did try 113 lbs and did 5,5,5 without extreme stress. It was hard but pleasant. I didn't start to faint like when I initially tried 110 lbs. That said, I will keep with 3 lbs increment on the press. I'm also glad I didn't go with 2.5 lbs. Those numbers seem arbitrary. What's more essential seems to cause stress without going into shock.

I go to a commercial gym. The plates are usually next to a workstation but I did notice someone seems to have switched at least some plates. I'm a bit of an analyst, so I predict that most plates only degrade with time from their initial variation, and the difference between real and estimated weight tends to vary independently from plate to plate except a correlation for the age of the plate. In any case by the laws of stochastic processes, using fractional plates will have a greater net accuracy effect than the variation of the plates, as long as you are using more that 4 plates on each side and have tried to visually match the abuse of the plates (like put either 2 beat up 10 lbs plates, or 2 new 10 lbs plates, but not 1 new and 1 old).

In other words, from now on, I am using fractional plates in one way or another when calculations demand it.

[Kazzin]

Okay but still your shoulders should not be in constant pain from training. Something is wrong, and you should post a video.