starting strength gym
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 11

Thread: When "re-running" a weight range: better to increase or decrease the weight jumps?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2020
    Posts
    105

    Default When "re-running" a weight range: better to increase or decrease the weight jumps?

    • starting strength seminar april 2024
    • starting strength seminar jume 2024
    • starting strength seminar august 2024
    Howdy folks,

    Let's say I got my squat from 275 to 315, increasing the weight by 2.5 lbs each workout. If I need to reset after hitting 315, and work my way back up from 275 (or thereabouts), would it be better to increase or decrease my weight jumps, relative to the 2.5-lb jumps I was using before? Part of me thinks that I should decrease the weight jumps (i.e. to 1.5- or 2.0-lb jumps), to give my body more time to get stronger on the 2nd run through this weight range, hopefully allowing me to get past 315 the 2nd time around. But the other part of me thinks "heck, my body is already used to the 275 - 315 lb weight range; don't be a pansy; don't delay the strength gains; etc."; therefore, I should increase the weight jumps (i.e. to 5-lb jumps) so I can move through the range faster the 2nd time around.

    I can see the merits of both arguments, but I'm not sure which one wins. Any pointers? Has anyone tried both methods and seen significantly different results? If yes, I'm all ears. Thanks everyone!

    -skypig

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Posts
    668

    Default

    I think we need to know more about your programming to answer this intelligently.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Posts
    1,151

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by skypig View Post
    Howdy folks,

    Let's say I got my squat from 275 to 315, increasing the weight by 2.5 lbs each workout. If I need to reset after hitting 315, and work my way back up from 275 (or thereabouts), would it be better to increase or decrease my weight jumps, relative to the 2.5-lb jumps I was using before? Part of me thinks that I should decrease the weight jumps (i.e. to 1.5- or 2.0-lb jumps), to give my body more time to get stronger on the 2nd run through this weight range, hopefully allowing me to get past 315 the 2nd time around. But the other part of me thinks "heck, my body is already used to the 275 - 315 lb weight range; don't be a pansy; don't delay the strength gains; etc."; therefore, I should increase the weight jumps (i.e. to 5-lb jumps) so I can move through the range faster the 2nd time around.

    I can see the merits of both arguments, but I'm not sure which one wins. Any pointers? Has anyone tried both methods and seen significantly different results? If yes, I'm all ears. Thanks everyone!

    -skypig
    I believe this is perfectly explained in the grey book.
    A deload, which should happen only one or two times during a consistent NLP and only when necessary, not just when you feel like it (see The First Three Questions), consists of dropping the load by 10% and basically repeat what you have already done

    From the book:

    "A slight back-off in training weight with the immediate resumption of slow and steady progress identical to what has taken place in previous months is appropriate."

    "The extra rest and recovery should allow success with a weight slightly above that which the trainee was successful with previously, and the act of lifting this heavier weight should spur further progress for several more workouts"

    Again, this doesn't work infinitely every time you get stuck. Only on the novice phase when you have been pushing for quite some time and the weight is legitimately heavy.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2020
    Posts
    105

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt James View Post
    I think we need to know more about your programming to answer this intelligently.
    My programming right now is basically the "1 lift per day" split described for Intermediate training in the gray book. I lift 4 days per week: day 1 is squat, day 2 is OHP, then a rest day/assistance, day 3 is DL, day 4 is bench, and then rest/assistance during the weekend. Also, for each lift, I alternate between Intensity (5RM or 2x3) and Volume (5x5, or 2x5 for DL) versions from week to week. If I do Volume squats this week, then I'll do Intensity squats the next week, etc. Yes, 1 squat day per week means slower progress, but that's the best I can do with my current work/life schedule.

    I appreciate any more tips. Thanks Matt!

    Quote Originally Posted by francesco.decaro View Post
    I believe this is perfectly explained in the grey book.
    A deload, which should happen only one or two times during a consistent NLP and only when necessary, not just when you feel like it (see The First Three Questions), consists of dropping the load by 10% and basically repeat what you have already done

    From the book:

    "A slight back-off in training weight with the immediate resumption of slow and steady progress identical to what has taken place in previous months is appropriate."

    "The extra rest and recovery should allow success with a weight slightly above that which the trainee was successful with previously, and the act of lifting this heavier weight should spur further progress for several more workouts"

    Again, this doesn't work infinitely every time you get stuck. Only on the novice phase when you have been pushing for quite some time and the weight is legitimately heavy.
    I've already done the NLP - right now I'm running a 1 lift per day Intermediate split (4 lifting days per week), alternating between Intensity (5RM) and Volume (5x5) versions of each lift (as I explained in my answer to Matt James).

    To make my question more specific: after maxing out one of my lifts (where "maxing out" means I either can't complete all 5 reps or can't complete them without significant form breakdown) I will need to reset the weight. Assuming I'd like to try "running it out" again after the reset/deload, using different weight jumps than I did before, is it better for overall strength development to use greater or smaller weight jumps? Yes, I realize I could be doing further program changes and/or trying out Advanced programming, but I feel that's beyond my level, and would require more time and study than I have right now.

    I appreciate your advice. Thanks!

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Posts
    1,151

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by skypig View Post
    My programming right now is basically the "1 lift per day" split described for Intermediate training in the gray book. I lift 4 days per week: day 1 is squat, day 2 is OHP, then a rest day/assistance, day 3 is DL, day 4 is bench, and then rest/assistance during the weekend. Also, for each lift, I alternate between Intensity (5RM or 2x3) and Volume (5x5, or 2x5 for DL) versions from week to week. If I do Volume squats this week, then I'll do Intensity squats the next week, etc. Yes, 1 squat day per week means slower progress, but that's the best I can do with my current work/life schedule.

    I appreciate any more tips. Thanks Matt!



    I've already done the NLP - right now I'm running a 1 lift per day Intermediate split (4 lifting days per week), alternating between Intensity (5RM) and Volume (5x5) versions of each lift (as I explained in my answer to Matt James).

    To make my question more specific: after maxing out one of my lifts (where "maxing out" means I either can't complete all 5 reps or can't complete them without significant form breakdown) I will need to reset the weight. Assuming I'd like to try "running it out" again after the reset/deload, using different weight jumps than I did before, is it better for overall strength development to use greater or smaller weight jumps? Yes, I realize I could be doing further program changes and/or trying out Advanced programming, but I feel that's beyond my level, and would require more time and study than I have right now.

    I appreciate your advice. Thanks!
    Well, strength development comes from lifting heavier weights than you are now, not from deloading and getting back to the same weight but faster (which is only a display of your ability to express strength more efficiently because of the lack of overall fatigue, but not your ability to express MORE strength, since we define strength as application of force against an external resistance aka the load on the bar), unless the deload was forced by incorrect technique which means the load lifted doesn't even count (for example high squats, flexed back in the deadlift, knee bend in the press), but I would say this doesn't happen to an intermediate who has been training the same movements for at least a couple years.

    You said that in between your sessions you do rest/assistance. What does that mean? Because you might be messing up your recovery with the assistance exercises.

    My advice would be to talk to an SSC online and explain in detail what your programming, diet, schedule looks like so they can give you a specific solution whenever you feel like you are getting stuck

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Posts
    668

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by skypig View Post
    My programming right now is basically the "1 lift per day" split described for Intermediate training in the gray book. I lift 4 days per week: day 1 is squat, day 2 is OHP, then a rest day/assistance, day 3 is DL, day 4 is bench, and then rest/assistance during the weekend. Also, for each lift, I alternate between Intensity (5RM or 2x3) and Volume (5x5, or 2x5 for DL) versions from week to week. If I do Volume squats this week, then I'll do Intensity squats the next week, etc. Yes, 1 squat day per week means slower progress, but that's the best I can do with my current work/life schedule.
    That helps, yes.

    I haven't done the program you're describing but the idea of running out/re-running a weight range on intensity day is common enough. Usually there are two ways to do this-- either start your new block at the same weight as the prior one, but with more reps, or, start at a higher weight with the same rep scheme. Example: You start at 345 for 2 sets of 3 and work your way up to 395 for singles. Next block, you start at 345 again but for 5s. The idea being that each time you're doing a weight, you'll be doing it for more reps than the last time. Until the end, maybe, but hopefully you can get further on singles. Andy Baker has written about this kind of a set up, I think both in articles and in the Practical Programming. An example for the second approach, using the same numbers, instead of starting at 345 for 2 sets of 3, you'd start at 355 for sets of 3 and go from there. There are even more ways to change this up but I don't think they will work in a one lift per week setup.

    Now, the whole point of that is that one way or the other, you're making quantifiable progress-- you're not just repeating the same weight, you're doing it for more reps than you did the last time you touched it.

    As to the question of weight jumps, I've never considered doing less than 5lb jumps on squat and deadlift and I'm not sure it's effective or efficient. I think you'd be better served by tweaking sets and reps, and at a certain level of advancement, tweaking how frequently you increase the weight.

    Also, are you doing any backoff sets on the intensity days?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2020
    Posts
    105

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt James View Post
    That helps, yes.

    I haven't done the program you're describing but the idea of running out/re-running a weight range on intensity day is common enough. Usually there are two ways to do this-- either start your new block at the same weight as the prior one, but with more reps, or, start at a higher weight with the same rep scheme. Example: You start at 345 for 2 sets of 3 and work your way up to 395 for singles. Next block, you start at 345 again but for 5s. The idea being that each time you're doing a weight, you'll be doing it for more reps than the last time. Until the end, maybe, but hopefully you can get further on singles. Andy Baker has written about this kind of a set up, I think both in articles and in the Practical Programming. An example for the second approach, using the same numbers, instead of starting at 345 for 2 sets of 3, you'd start at 355 for sets of 3 and go from there. There are even more ways to change this up but I don't think they will work in a one lift per week setup.

    Now, the whole point of that is that one way or the other, you're making quantifiable progress-- you're not just repeating the same weight, you're doing it for more reps than you did the last time you touched it.

    As to the question of weight jumps, I've never considered doing less than 5lb jumps on squat and deadlift and I'm not sure it's effective or efficient. I think you'd be better served by tweaking sets and reps, and at a certain level of advancement, tweaking how frequently you increase the weight.

    Also, are you doing any backoff sets on the intensity days?
    Thanks Matt. My reasoning/intent with using smaller weight jumps (i.e. < 5 lbs) was to improve the amount of recovery that my body gets between workouts - in a sense, this would be another way of "tweaking how frequently you increase the weight," to use your words. I know that higher level training is a fine balancing act between providing enough stress to build strength vs. providing too much stress and screwing yourself up...and I thought that using smaller weight jumps would be a way to "err on the side of caution" while still increasing the weight steadily (just not as rapidly) to drive strength gains. That being said, based on your response, it sounds like changing the number of sets and/or reps is a more productive way to do this, so I'll think about how I can work that into my programming.

    I don't do any backoff sets on Intensity days, but I know that both the blue and grey books recommend them in certain situations (late-stage NLP and several of the Intermediate programs). Thanks for the reminder.

  8. #8

    Default

    It would be useful to know your height, weight and age as well. As if you are 6ft and 180lbs, there isn’t much point in discussing programming to the nth degree as it’s more a recovery issue than a programming issue.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Posts
    668

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by skypig View Post
    Thanks Matt. My reasoning/intent with using smaller weight jumps (i.e. < 5 lbs) was to improve the amount of recovery that my body gets between workouts - in a sense, this would be another way of "tweaking how frequently you increase the weight"
    You're doing each lift once a week and you're worried about recovery? I'd be more worried about inadequate stress to drive progress, assuming the numbers you quoted above reflect what you're lifting now. Hence my suggestion of backoffs. This kind of program works really well for a guy who's already very strong because he can get a lot of training stress with not many reps. Even then, he's probably going to do some backoffs to accumulate more volume.

    My comment on tweaking the frequency of increases is more for a late intermediate who isn't able to add 5 pounds a week anymore. So maybe the increases happen on a 2 or 3 week basis. But he's still going to have to accumulate volume and stress throughout that timeframe, ideally in multiple rep/set ranges. But I suspect this is beyond the scope of the current discussion.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2020
    Posts
    105

    Default

    starting strength coach development program
    Okay...yeah, I guess I shouldn't be too worried about recovery since I'm only doing 1 lift per day. Thanks for putting that in perspective.

    As for my numbers, I'm 4 days away from being age 34, and my weight cycles between 188 - 195 lbs. I've tried eating more multiple times before, but every time I try, I just end up feeling sick and bloated and can't keep it up for long enough. Using my current programming, my squat got to 315 lbs, my deadlift to 370, my bench to 255, and my OHP to 150. If I'm being perfectly honest, I'm probably not a true Intermediate in terms of how much weight I'm lifting, but I switched to the Intermediate-style Volume and Intensity sets/programming a couple years ago, because I was unable to make progress doing the prescribed NLP 3 sets of 5 reps past a certain point (thankfully the Intermediate programming allowed me to continue advancing). And I can definitely say that the SS methods (NLP followed by Intermediate style 1 lift per day) got me way stronger than the other trash I was trying in the gym.

    Based on what you said, I think I'll increase my weight jumps when I start the next block of training, and maybe also implement some backoff sets. I've got no reason not to try adding a bit more training stress. I should also mention that on my 2 "off" days during the week, I alternate between body weight vs. weighted chinups and pullups (3 sets). For the body weight chins/pulls, I can usually manage 3 sets of 12 - 16 reps, and for the weighted ones, I'm adding 65 lbs to my chins and 50 lbs to my pulls. Hopefully that's adding some productive training stress to my upper body lifts.

    Thanks again for all the advice!

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •