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Thread: conditioning and cumulative lower-back fatigue: an observation

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by tompaynter View Post
    What I've read in sources specifically dedicated to conditioning advocate for building an aerobic base. I can't recount the science, but the impression I got is that one's energy capacity could be likened to a hydroelectric dam and the reservoir behind it. Very short-burst power, in this analogy, would be the size of the spillgates and turbines--the maximum amount of water than can be dumped and converted to energy at once. The size of the reservoir, the total amount of water behind the dam, can also be improved through training. But the aerobic base corresponds to the size of the inflow into the reservoir--the amount of energy the body can consistently produce for a long time, by burning fat. You can't run a marathon based on the size of your spillgates or the amount of water in your reservoir; it's the size of the stream filling your reservoir that matters at that point. And that stream is best increased by longer, slower training. So longer, slower training is important even if one's sport requires repeated bursts of shorter duration, because the stream is what refills the reservoir between those bursts of effort. E.g., boxers do roadwork even though their sport is done in 3-minute rounds, within which are even shorter bursts of effort.

    Is this all crap in your view?
    Pretty much. But if you want to go through the process of finding out about recovery yourself, continue to ignore your back tweaks, run LSD, and enjoy being "fit". At some point it may dawn on you that conditioning is acquired quickly, and that strength makes it easier to acquire.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    Pretty much. But if you want to go through the process of finding out about recovery yourself, continue to ignore your back tweaks, run LSD, and enjoy being "fit". At some point it may dawn on you that conditioning is acquired quickly, and that strength makes it easier to acquire.
    Acquiring fitness quickly is exactly what I am trying to do. And with a max squat last fall of about 350, DL 450, bench 315, I've already gone through the process of getting strong.

    So if LSD is not the way to acquire conditioning, and HIIT is not the way to acquire conditioning, and I don't have a prowler, what is the way to acquire conditioning quickly?

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    Buy a prowler.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tompaynter View Post
    Acquiring fitness quickly is exactly what I am trying to do. And with a max squat last fall of about 350, DL 450, bench 315, I've already gone through the process of getting strong.

    So if LSD is not the way to acquire conditioning, and HIIT is not the way to acquire conditioning, and I don't have a prowler, what is the way to acquire conditioning quickly?
    There's lots of ways to do HIIT. Prowler, assault bike, rower, hill sprints. They are all useful, to the extent that they're practical. Even LSD once a week combined with the pickup ball would probably get you where you want to be provided it's a modality that doesn't kill your joints or make you cripplingly sore (so-- bike, swim, etc.). Honestly even playing ball once a week ought to get easier within a few sessions. I suspect most of the problem is it sounds like you went from no conditioning work to 3 days of conditioning work (including the ballgames) while still doing strength training.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt James View Post
    There's lots of ways to do HIIT. Prowler, assault bike, rower, hill sprints. They are all useful, to the extent that they're practical. Even LSD once a week combined with the pickup ball would probably get you where you want to be provided it's a modality that doesn't kill your joints or make you cripplingly sore (so-- bike, swim, etc.). Honestly even playing ball once a week ought to get easier within a few sessions. I suspect most of the problem is it sounds like you went from no conditioning work to 3 days of conditioning work (including the ballgames) while still doing strength training.
    Yeah probably. It seems to make a ton of difference, though, whether the conditioning modality puts more stress on my lower back, or doesn't. I bet I would have been all right if I had done intervals on the stair machine rather than the stuff I did. And once the lower back gets overstressed it takes days to recover. Interesting phenomenon, that was the observation that made me write the initial post. (I did try an interval bike workout and got significant knee pain afterwards, oddly enough. Probably great for some people but didn't work for me.)

    So far I have not found conditioning to be as easy or quick as is sometimes claimed around here. I'd be interested to see testimonials from people who did nothing but barbell train for months or years, then got in shape for an endurance sport in just a few weeks (and who were older than say 24 at the time). Because I would be surprised.

    Interestingly, the source I read about conditioning that gave rise to my hydroelectric damn analogy makes the same claim about aerobic conditioning that Rip makes about strength: that it is an adaptation that can be improved/accumulate over a matter of years. I have no interest in being an ultra-marathoner or extreme mountaineer, but when you look at what people like that can do, to me it seems credible that there are deep, serious adaptations that can occur for endurance just as there are for strength. That someone who has trained endurance seriously for say 5 years will have adaptations that are just as important for that activity (and slow to build) as the adaptations a weightlifter who has trained for 5 years and has a 600lb deadlift and 500lb squat has for that activity.

  6. #16
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    Two questions:

    Quote Originally Posted by tompaynter View Post
    I'd be interested to see testimonials from people who did nothing but barbell train for months or years, then got in shape for an endurance sport in just a few weeks (and who were older than say 24 at the time). Because I would be surprised.
    Do you really think one day of pickup basketball is an "endurance sport"?

    Interestingly, the source I read about conditioning that gave rise to my hydroelectric damn analogy makes the same claim about aerobic conditioning that Rip makes about strength: that it is an adaptation that can be improved/accumulate over a matter of years. I have no interest in being an ultra-marathoner or extreme mountaineer, but when you look at what people like that can do, to me it seems credible that there are deep, serious adaptations that can occur for endurance just as there are for strength. That someone who has trained endurance seriously for say 5 years will have adaptations that are just as important for that activity (and slow to build) as the adaptations a weightlifter who has trained for 5 years and has a 600lb deadlift and 500lb squat has for that activity.
    Have you considered the role of genetics in sport selection?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tompaynter View Post
    So far I have not found conditioning to be as easy or quick as is sometimes claimed around here. I'd be interested to see testimonials from people who did nothing but barbell train for months or years, then got in shape for an endurance sport in just a few weeks (and who were older than say 24 at the time). Because I would be surprised.
    My own experience is this: I ran recreationally in my 30s. Probably 25-30 miles a week. Never was very fast but I could do a 10k in about 50 minutes. For various reasons I quit running around 40. Started strength training at 42. Didn't do any conditioning beyond walking for a couple years. Two years ago, when I was 44, one of my daughters wanted to do a father-daughter 5k. I was doing a M/W/F intermediate program at the time. So about 10 weeks ahead of the event, I started jogging on Tuesdays or Wednesdays and then did hill sprints on Saturdays. After about a month or maybe 5 weeks of that, my cardio conditioning was basically back to what it was when I was running regularly, and I replaced the Saturday interval training with more LSD. Because with running, at least for me, the hard part is not the cardio aspect but it's adapting to the shock and pounding (running on pavement sucks). I was back to 8.5 minute miles after about two months with just that half-assed training. And I was 40 pounds heavier than I was when I was running 5 days a week in my 30s. I also play tennis with my son in the summers, he plays year round and is quite competitive, and I am terrible-- and usually after a 3 or 4 sessions of getting my ass handed to me, I'm doing a lot better. I still get my ass handed to me but I'm not sucking wind while I do it.

    I have no interest in being an ultra-marathoner or extreme mountaineer, but when you look at what people like that can do, to me it seems credible that there are deep, serious adaptations that can occur for endurance just as there are for strength. That someone who has trained endurance seriously for say 5 years will have adaptations that are just as important for that activity (and slow to build) as the adaptations a weightlifter who has trained for 5 years and has a 600lb deadlift and 500lb squat has for that activity.
    Probably true, and that's a highly specialized adaptation. But that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about general fitness to the level that you can play pickup ball, or old man's league soccer, or run a few miles without stopping, or tennis with your teenager.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    Two questions:



    Do you really think one day of pickup basketball is an "endurance sport"?



    Have you considered the role of genetics in sport selection?
    I think that 4 or 5 games of pickup basketball requires considerably more endurance than I currently have. I would like to quickly improve my endurance, as you say can be done. I am interested in the most efficient way to do this, with the understanding that I do not have a prowler nor do I have room to use one if I buy one. Does that parse the issue closely enough?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tompaynter View Post
    I think that 4 or 5 games of pickup basketball requires considerably more endurance than I currently have. I would like to quickly improve my endurance, as you say can be done. I am interested in the most efficient way to do this, with the understanding that I do not have a prowler nor do I have room to use one if I buy one. Does that parse the issue closely enough?
    Sure does. Train somewhere that has a prowler.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tompaynter View Post
    Acquiring fitness quickly is exactly what I am trying to do. And with a max squat last fall of about 350, DL 450, bench 315, I've already gone through the process of getting strong.
    So if LSD is not the way to acquire conditioning, and HIIT is not the way to acquire conditioning, and I don't have a prowler, what is the way to acquire conditioning quickly?
    Agree with Mark.
    It helps greatly if you are Nordic.
    The reason LSD is necessary for enduro-type athletes seems to be because they don't have the additional recovery capacity to tolerate more intense training.

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