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Thread: conditioning and cumulative lower-back fatigue: an observation

  1. #1
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    Default conditioning and cumulative lower-back fatigue: an observation

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    I've started playing pickup basketball again, and am adding more conditioning to my routine to get in shape for it. Twice now I have experienced a pattern where I'll do some HIIT type training with exercises that tire the lower back, and exhaust my lower back to the point of a 'tweak' that causes pain and stiffness until I rest it for half a week at least.

    Example:

    Saturday I deadlifted and benched, then did 3-4 rounds of a HIIT type routine consisting of box jumps, medicine ball slams, and then battling ropes--power-clean style followed by arm-only ripples or whatever you call them.
    Sunday rest.
    Monday, basketball to the point of being very tired, back sore, hard to run up and down the court (it's hard to say no to "c'mon man we need you, one more game").
    Tuesday rest
    Wednesday, 40 minutes of slow stair machine, heart rate about 135
    Thursday, squats. Back tweak on first rep of last set. Able to complete overhead presses afterwards.
    Friday-Saturday sore and stiff to the point where I have to slow down doing everyday activities and exercise seems like a bad idea.

    What's interesting about this to me is the cause and effect between a bit of extra lower-back fatigue last Saturday and a strain on Thursday. Sure the basketball Monday and stairs Wednesday contributed. But I have experienced this pattern before, where I've done a bit of HIIT and haven't been careful to select exercises that are easy on the lower back, and the result is a strain a few days later. Cumulative fatigue and recovery are real, folks. I see why Rip recommends no extra work at all during the NLP.

    Basics: 52 years old, 6'6", about 265, been training SS style for a few years now, best lifts were last fall, squat around 350 and deadlift around 450 for reps, now significantly off of those numbers due to time off before and during the holidays and shifting focus to conditioning.

    What are good options for HIIT that don't tire the lower back? I've used pushups, box jumps, and split/rear foot elevated squats. Thinking lunges might work too. I do use the stair machine for HIIT type intervals as well but it is nice to have options. I do not have access to a prowler.

  2. #2
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    Describe the physical performance of pickup baseball.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by tompaynter View Post
    I've started playing pickup basketball again, and am adding more conditioning to my routine to get in shape for it. Twice now I have experienced a pattern where I'll do some HIIT type training with exercises that tire the lower back, and exhaust my lower back to the point of a 'tweak' that causes pain and stiffness until I rest it for half a week at least.

    Example:

    Saturday I deadlifted and benched, then did 3-4 rounds of a HIIT type routine consisting of box jumps, medicine ball slams, and then battling ropes--power-clean style followed by arm-only ripples or whatever you call them.
    Sunday rest.
    Monday, basketball to the point of being very tired, back sore, hard to run up and down the court (it's hard to say no to "c'mon man we need you, one more game").
    Tuesday rest
    Wednesday, 40 minutes of slow stair machine, heart rate about 135
    Thursday, squats. Back tweak on first rep of last set. Able to complete overhead presses afterwards.
    Friday-Saturday sore and stiff to the point where I have to slow down doing everyday activities and exercise seems like a bad idea.

    What's interesting about this to me is the cause and effect between a bit of extra lower-back fatigue last Saturday and a strain on Thursday. Sure the basketball Monday and stairs Wednesday contributed. But I have experienced this pattern before, where I've done a bit of HIIT and haven't been careful to select exercises that are easy on the lower back, and the result is a strain a few days later. Cumulative fatigue and recovery are real, folks. I see why Rip recommends no extra work at all during the NLP.

    Basics: 52 years old, 6'6", about 265, been training SS style for a few years now, best lifts were last fall, squat around 350 and deadlift around 450 for reps, now significantly off of those numbers due to time off before and during the holidays and shifting focus to conditioning.

    What are good options for HIIT that don't tire the lower back? I've used pushups, box jumps, and split/rear foot elevated squats. Thinking lunges might work too. I do use the stair machine for HIIT type intervals as well but it is nice to have options. I do not have access to a prowler.
    You understand what Rip means, yet you still had to do the exact opposite and get hurt.
    Listen to what the man says.
    You TRAIN for strength, and use it to PRACTICE your sport, which is all the conditioning you need to adapt to (I'm referring to the Two Factor Model)
    You're not old, but also not 21 anymore, you gotta plan accordingly, sir.


    How is slamming a ball on the ground or wiggling ropes around for 10 minutes or jumping on a box and slamming your joints in other creative ways, better condition you to play pickup baseball versus getting your squat, deadlift, bench press and press up and just playing pickup baseball?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    Describe the physical performance of pickup baseball.
    Basketball, not baseball. A lot of running up and down the court at whatever speed I can manage, changing direction and moving laterally to stick with my man, jumping for rebounds or to contest shots, and some body on body shoving--boxing out, fighting for post position. That last mostly done with hips and shoulders rather than outright shoving with the arms. Some dribbling and shooting but not that much for me as I try to play the center position and usually other players on my time are better scorers and ball handlers than I am. Passing the ball. Grabbing and holding the ball, sometimes while someone tries to take it away, e.g. fighting over a rebound. Games last maybe 15 minutes, not sure, moving pretty constantly during that time. Games often played back to back with just a couple of minutes in between. Is that enough information? If not can you ask more specifically?

  5. #5
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    Sorry, basketball. Same thing. How often do you play pickup basketball?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by francesco.decaro View Post
    You understand what Rip means, yet you still had to do the exact opposite and get hurt.
    Listen to what the man says.
    You TRAIN for strength, and use it to PRACTICE your sport, which is all the conditioning you need to adapt to (I'm referring to the Two Factor Model)
    You're not old, but also not 21 anymore, you gotta plan accordingly, sir.


    How is slamming a ball on the ground or wiggling ropes around for 10 minutes or jumping on a box and slamming your joints in other creative ways, better condition you to play pickup baseball versus getting your squat, deadlift, bench press and press up and just playing pickup baseball?
    Dude, chill. I didn't do conditioning while I was running the NLP. I'm not in my NLP anymore. I also don't have multiple hours of basketball practice each week for conditioning. I play basketball once a week right now because that's what my situation allows. I want to play without sucking wind so bad.

    I don't "slam my joints" when I do box jumps because I know how to do them.

    I know it is fun for guys like you to imitate Rip and lay into people. All I can say is I hope he sees this bro.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    Sorry, basketball. Same thing. How often do you play pickup basketball?
    Once a week.

  8. #8
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    Frank is right, in that were you playing twice a week, you wouldn't need any extra conditioning. Push the prowler once a week, and that should do it. Do not do situps, back extensions, or anything you see in a CrossFit gym.

  9. #9
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    It's interesting, despite having a back that is pretty strong from squats and deadlifts, when I get tired on the court I feel it in my lower back. There's a little part of me that thinks, "Maybe I should do some 'core' training...." But I think feeling fatigue in one's lower back is just what being tired feels like, and is corrected by getting in better condition for the activity, not by 'core' training?

    Rip, sounds like you are not a believer in the need to train different energy systems or build an 'aerobic base'. Strength, you would say, plus some interval-type training like with the prowler (plus practice--and no need for even the prowler if there's enough practice), is all one needs for most athletic activities.

    You often deflect questions about hypertrophy and aesthetics by saying you are not a bodybuilding coach and those things are outside of your expertise and interest. Would you say that you are or are not a conditioning coach? Do you consider conditioning to be inside or outside of your expertise and interest? E.g. if a trained runner who had already gone through the NLP and was already strong enough for running wanted a specific program of training to improve his time in a 6k, would you design one for him or refer him out?

    What I've read in sources specifically dedicated to conditioning advocate for building an aerobic base. I can't recount the science, but the impression I got is that one's energy capacity could be likened to a hydroelectric dam and the reservoir behind it. Very short-burst power, in this analogy, would be the size of the spillgates and turbines--the maximum amount of water than can be dumped and converted to energy at once. The size of the reservoir, the total amount of water behind the dam, can also be improved through training. But the aerobic base corresponds to the size of the inflow into the reservoir--the amount of energy the body can consistently produce for a long time, by burning fat. You can't run a marathon based on the size of your spillgates or the amount of water in your reservoir; it's the size of the stream filling your reservoir that matters at that point. And that stream is best increased by longer, slower training. So longer, slower training is important even if one's sport requires repeated bursts of shorter duration, because the stream is what refills the reservoir between those bursts of effort. E.g., boxers do roadwork even though their sport is done in 3-minute rounds, within which are even shorter bursts of effort.

    Is this all crap in your view?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by tompaynter View Post
    Dude, chill. I didn't do conditioning while I was running the NLP. I'm not in my NLP anymore. I also don't have multiple hours of basketball practice each week for conditioning. I play basketball once a week right now because that's what my situation allows. I want to play without sucking wind so bad.

    I don't "slam my joints" when I do box jumps because I know how to do them.

    I know it is fun for guys like you to imitate Rip and lay into people. All I can say is I hope he sees this bro.
    But you said it yourself, HIIT type exercises that you do often lead to back tweaks and stuff. So just drop the exercises. I don't have access to a prowler, so I use the rowing machine at the gym, it seems like a decent conditioning instrument. Also, post NLP I have taken to walking for like five or ten miles a few times a week. I have no idea whether it helps with anything physical, but it makes you feel good.

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