Squat depth

[nisora33]

Gary,

You drop too quickly in your squat. Slow it down.

Kenny Croxdale

What. The. Faaaawwwk.

This isn't even a goddamned "Gary" thread. Gary's squats aren't anywhere in this thread. You picked another dude's thread to pick on Gary's squats.

Jesus Christ, Kenny, I just shat myself with disdain for you.

-Stacey

[Gary Gibson]

I just shat myself with disdain for you.

Whoa. I have to use that one.

blowdpanis,

I believe Marty Gallagher (who used to coach Kirk Karwoski on the USA Powerlifting Team) reported to Pavel T that Kirk used a 16-week program of regular squats followed by pause squats.

I'm looking through my copy of "Beyond Bodybuilding" right now. Page 42...

16 weeks, one squat session each week...

Two sets of five with regular squat, then take of 50 lbs and do two more sets of 3-second pause squats. Add ten pounds per week for eight weeks. For the second half of the cycle, cut all sets to triples.

Pavel reports that this cycle was designed by Ricky Dale Crain himself.

Don't know how Bill Starr feels about pause squats these days, but some of the world's best have included them in their programs (but what works for the best may not work for us, etc, etc...).

[coldfire]

Howdy all,

I used to have issues with going way too low in squats, generally via a combination of a too-fast eccentric speed and relaxing stuff. Over the past few months, I've been working on my strength in a momentarily paused style squat (much like that described in Starr's The Strongest Shall Survive, though in this case done low bar), and while I've gotten much, much tighter, I actually seem to be compensating to the point where my depth is now borderline high.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQz-y0zS-sQ&fmt=18

Taken from a workout last night. By my eye, these reps look extremely close to feractual parallel, but I might be a teency bit high, so I'm curious what more educated eyes than me think here.

Obviously, if I introduced a real bounce, there'd be a tendency to grab another inch or two, which would probably solve the problem, and I am guessing that adopting heeled shoes may also help things. Another standard cue is "knees out," but I am already shoving the knees out, though I suppose more is possible.

As it stands, I am not even getting much "butt tuck," so I think the limits of depth here is actually a pretty good indication of my hamstring flexibility, which is not so awesome. But I am going about as low as I can here while staying as tight as I can in the bottom, so I suppose I was curious what others thought of the depth. Worth fixing?

Squats look pretty good, but if you want to work from a dead stop, why not lower it to the safety bars, pause for a second and drive up?

[Gary Gibson]

Same reason people use box squats and board presses instead of just squatting or benching off pins in a rack: different training effect.

Box squatting carries over better to suited squatting (especially for "stoppier" material) than pin squats.

Board pressing carries over better to shirted benching than pin bench presses. Pin bench presses would be much easier to set up, too, but people go through the trouble of having that extra person to hold the boards in place. The difference in training effect is worth it.

The OP wants to work on holding tension in the bottom of the squat. Pauses are superior to either squats to pins or boxes for this. He's forcing his muscles and tendons to do what the pins or boxes would help do if he used them. His goal is laudable and his choice of squat variation appropriate.

[coldfire]

Same reason people use box squats and board presses instead of just squatting or benching off pins in a rack: different training effect.

Box squatting carries over better to suited squatting (especially for "stoppier" material) than pin squats.

Board pressing carries over better to shirted benching than pin bench presses. Pin bench presses would be much easier to set up, too, but people go through the trouble of having that extra person to hold the boards in place. The difference in training effect is worth it.

The OP wants to work on holding tension in the bottom of the squat. Pauses are superior to either squats to pins or boxes for this. He's forcing his muscles and tendons to do what the pins or boxes would help do if he used them. His goal is laudable and his choice of squat variation appropriate.

But he is pausing for a very short time. I think a real pause might pull him out of a good bottom position, and that's my reasoning for using the pins.

[poopmonkey]

This may also be unnecessarily picky but it looks to me like your knee sleeves are too low.

I have the kono's as well and the directions state to position them so that the logo/symbol is on top of your patella. Looks to me like yours are a bit lower.

This is the only nit-pick I could make because your squats look perfect to me.

[blowdpanis]

But he is pausing for a very short time. I think a real pause might pull him out of a good bottom position, and that's my reasoning for using the pins.

What, exactly, is a "real" pause? The only difference between the length of pause I'm using and a longer pause is that it'd be harder to pause for longer, obviously.

I've settled on a pause around that length because it just seems to work better and feels more "natural" than arbitrarily pausing for several seconds. Or stated differently, what would be the effect of pausing longer, other than making it harder? I want "enough" of a pause to largely dissipate the stretch reflex and to force myself to feel out the bottom position, staying very tight there. This seems to work, and as I said earlier, is also pretty much in line with Bill Starr's suggestion, so I figure if it's good enough for Rip's mentor...

And for the record, I've done pin squats, and think they're an excellent lift, but they don't transfer to free squats nearly as well, in my experience. Similar to box squats in that sense, the ability to actually "relax" at the bottom as you deload the weight just does not transfer well to a free squat in which that never occurs.

[coldfire]

What, exactly, is a "real" pause? The only difference between the length of pause I'm using and a longer pause is that it'd be harder to pause for longer, obviously.

I've settled on a pause around that length because it just seems to work better and feels more "natural" than arbitrarily pausing for several seconds. Or stated differently, what would be the effect of pausing longer, other than making it harder? I want "enough" of a pause to largely dissipate the stretch reflex and to force myself to feel out the bottom position, staying very tight there. This seems to work, and as I said earlier, is also pretty much in line with Bill Starr's suggestion, so I figure if it's good enough for Rip's mentor...

A real pause is enough to eliminate the stretch reflex. I don't think it happens in your case, but maybe I'm wrong.

By the way, if you read the assistance exercises chapter in SS, Rip suggests pause on the pins.

[blowdpanis]

A real pause is enough to eliminate the stretch reflex. I don't think it happens in your case, but maybe I'm wrong.

By the way, if you read the assistance exercises chapter in SS, Rip suggests pause on the pins.

I didn't realize you were the arbiter of real pauses I seem to recall Mel Siff suggesting that the stretch reflex in something like a squat doesn't fully dissipate for a good 5+ seconds, though, and while that may have merit, I think there's a fine line between a pause and over-pausing. I've looked at a lot of videos of people much, much stronger than me pausing, and the pauses I'm using seem pretty typical in regards to length.

Again, I don't think pin squats are a bad exercise, my experience just favors paused squats as transferring better, particularly in the context of not otherwise practicing free squats in the routine (i.e. relying exclusively on paused squats, pin squats, etc). I've been fooling with these a lot lately with another buddy and we've sort of gravitated towards "momentary" pauses. Your mileage may vary, of course.

[El Viejo]

The squats look fine to me, but I want to comment on the chin-ups - those were fucking incredible! I don't know if you are aware of this, but there ain't a hell of a lot of guys that can do that. At least not at the gyms that I've been to. At the gym I currently use, I've NEVER seen anybody (except me, of course ) even do a legitimate, full ROM, body-weight chin or pull-up. Needless to say, I'm very impressed. Keep up the good work.