Are GHRs needed if I power clean?

[Hyperfluxe]

I was wondering if the glute-ham raise is a worthwhile accessory movement if you powerclean since they both advance the deadlift, but the power clean is obviously better due to its explosive fullbody nature.

[Kregna]

They do different things don't they? Good Mornings strengthen the back and the glutes and hamstrings whereas power cleans let you train your explosiveness and moving the bar faster.

I'm moving onto a split in a week or two, and my assistance for squats is going to be Good Mornings, not power cleans, because I want to strengthen my back more for deadlifts ad it always seems to be my weak point. Also, from what I've seen, more people have talked about/acknowledged the carryover from GMs to DLs than the carryover from PCs to DLs.

edit: sorry, I thought you were talking about good mornings...

[hamburgerfan]

What the fuck? Better for what? Power development? Sure. Building muscle in the posterior chain? Not really.

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

I was wondering if the glute-ham raise is a worthwhile accessory movement if you powerclean since they both advance the deadlift, but the power clean is obviously better due to its explosive fullbody nature.

Depends where you're at training wise and what you're looking to do. GHR's and PC's aren't really comparable IMO, but they both have their place.

Some people swear by good mornings but I don't think they work that well at all for a raw lifter.

[Kenny Crox]

Some people swear by good mornings but I don't think they work that well at all for a raw lifter.

Jordan,

Good Mornings are just as effective for a "Raw" lifter as a "Geared" (Deadlift suit) lifter when it come to developing strength for the deadlift.

Ascending Strength Curve

1) The Ascending Strength Curve is the same for the Good Morning and the Deadlift.

Thus, you are developing strength in the same muscle groups by utilizing the Good Morning in the deadlift.

2) Accommodating Resistance

Also, the use of bands, chains and/or bungees attached in performing a Good Morning are much easier to use than with a Deadlift.

3) Good Mornings allow you to overload the muscles involved in the deadlift without overtraining/burning them out, generally speaking.

In the July 1981 Powerlifting USA article, "The Biomechanics of Powerlifting", Dr Tom McLaughlin cautioned, "...whatever you do, DON'T OVER TRAIN THE LOWER BACK. These muscles fatigue faster than almost any other muscle group in the body and also take more time to recover."


The Deadlift is renowned for overtraining the lower back.

Bill Starr's beliefed "that the majority of powerlifters over trained the deadlift. He stated that heavy deadlifts with 500-600 pounds fatigued the lower back and required longer recovery times. Not many people paid much attention to him. Powerlifters, as a whole, are still over training their deadlifts." (see No Deadlift article posted below).

Thus, the development of strength can be developed with fewer incidents of overtraining with Good Mornings compared to Deadlifts.

Torque

My speculation (a sophisticated term for a guess) is that one of the reasons Good Mornings effectively train the lower back (posterior chain) is due to the torque (greater the distance the load/weight is from the fulcrum/hips).

This allows the lower back (posterior chain) to be overloaded with lighter load but still produce the same results; it elicits a training effect (increase posterior chain strength) in such a way that does not overtrain the lower back.

Bill Starr

Bill Starr's "A Different Approach To Improving The Deadlift" is based on the use of Heavy Good Mornings combined with Olympic Pulls that produced his American Record Deadlift of 666 lbs at the 1968 Senior Nationals.

Ernie Pickett lifted at the same 1968 Senior Nationals and increased his 51 lb to his pull utilizing the same training.

Don Cundy "The Deadlift Specialist" pulled 784 lbs.

Pickett "made a smooth 750 deadlift on his second attempt and declined taking a third."
http://startingstrength.com/index.ph...2#.UdlxQ77nbmQ

"The NO Deadlift, Deadlift Program"
http://www.liftinglarge.com/The-No-D...m_ep_51-1.html

The foundation of this article is built on Bill Starr's utilization of Heavy Good Mornings and Olympic Pulls as a means of increasing the Deadlift.

Louie Simmons,a student of Starr, advocates Heavy Good Mornings as a means of increasing Deadlift.

My Experience

I stopped Deadlifting in 1998 and began using Starr's program. I went from being a good Deadlifter to one of the best in my weight/age class.

My deadlift went from 245 kg/540 lbs to 280 kg/617 lbs, NASA New Mexico State Records).

Learning The Competition Deadlift (any movement)

Two advocates of using auxiliary exercise as a mean of developing strength in a movement are Dr Tom McLaughlin (PhD Exercise Biomechanics/former Powerlifter) and Louie Simmons.

McLaughlin's Development of Technique

As McLaughlin stated, technique in such movements as a Competition Deadlift (Squat and Bench Press) is best developed via heavy singles of 85% or greater.

Doing so, allows you to focus on the development of technique, strength is cultivated with auxiliary movements.

Simmons is also a proponent of this method.

Kenny Croxdale

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

You added 77lbs to your deadlift in 15 years? I did that in 12 weeks while deadlifting. To each their own.

I disagree with virtually the entirety of your post other than accessory movements can help, practice at submaximal work helps technique (although it does not always have to be singles), and Olympic pulls help the deadlift.

To the OP, I do lots of GHR's, but I pull a lot and squat a lot too. I don't do any GM's because I can't use enough weight or do enough volume with them to drive the adaptations I want. I've worked up to doing pin good mornings at 315, SSB GM's off chains, etc. Not saying they won't work but I AM SAYING it won't be optimal...not by a long shot. GHR's might not be either, to be honest. I am a big believer in them, however.

[Kenny Crox]

You added 77lbs to your deadlift in 15 years? I did that in 12 weeks while deadlifting. To each their own.

77 lbs in 2 Years

I increased my deadlift from 540 lbs to 617 lbs in two years.

I disagree with virtually the entirety of your post other than accessory movements can help, practice at submaximal work helps technique (although it does not always have to be singles), and Olympic pulls help the deadlift.

Disagreement

You disagreement is primarily with Starr, Simmons, McLaughlin.

Also, it is hard to understand something you are not familiar with.

Kenny Croxdale





]

[hamburgerfan]

Good mornings are incredibly great as well as incredibly optimal. One advantage is that they build ab/torso strength better than squats, deadlifts or anything else I've tried.

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

If your quotes are accurate and not taken out of context, then yes I disagree with them too (particularly Louie) about how to optimally train the deadlift. On the other hand, having read these authors' work I do not think we're in disagreement, at least not to very high degrees (except for Louie). I think our implementations might differ, at times, based on a variety of things, but what you typed about the GM is what we're discussing, not these coaches' methodology.

Also, it is hard to understand something you are not familiar with.

Agreed. If this were the case I would not have commented.

[Meshuggah]

Good mornings are incredibly great as well as incredibly optimal. One advantage is that they build ab/torso strength better than squats, deadlifts or anything else I've tried.

^ Yep. I especially like to do Good Mornings with my SS Bar.