Adjustments To Novice Program for Cardio/Endurance?

[Magma]

How will 10 reps at 85Kg make you stronger than 5 reps at 110Kg? If you can do 5 reps at 180Kg, how many reps can you do at 100Kg?

I think your recovery issues are more likely due to the fact that you are deadlifting every session, vice every other. If you review the program, you should deadlift every session until recovery is an issue, then introduce the powerclean. The program calls for an addition of 5lbs to the bar for the squat every time until recovery is an issue, then you assume the light day on Wednesday adding 5lbs twice week vice 3.

Doing 8-10 reps is not a light day, and will not aid in your recovery. Light/heavy is not determined with reps, it's determined with weight on the bar.

You're weights are not at the intermediate level for a guy your size. You are experiencing the part of the program where it starts to get a little hard, and most look for something less hard.

In the end, it's your life, your body. The program as we teach it, is not what you are asking to do. As I say to others, try it and see.

Thanks for your further reply, Mac. I do understand the points you are making, and I'm not in disagreement with you. Maybe it's more of an age issue than I realised. I've been fortunate throughout my life and have never had a bad injury - this was the first. Prior to the injury I was in great shape for my age, in fact, I was in better shape than many 10+ years younger. The injury suddenly put me on my back for months, and changed a lot, my legs are nowhere near as flexible as they were, and while I used to walk 8+ miles without a thought, I now feel discomfort after short distances. And I've put on weight.

So when I tried something different to strength training, and felt like cr@p as a result, to be honest - I kinda panicked!

I agree about all the strength stuff, what you say makes total sense. But I have to wear this head and it's been burdening me with thoughts of inadequacy, regardless of the good sense you are talking. So if doing a few high rep workouts helps me with my head game, it may also help me with my strength.

As for the power clean, unfortunately, I can't manage it at present due to my achilles injury.

And as for my weights not being at the intermediate level, I am not far off - I've been using Lon Kilgore's standards (Rip's writing partner) at:
http://lonkilgore.com/freebies/freebies.html
and according to him, a 40 year old (of my weight) intermediate squat is 120kg (I'm only 10kg short), and deadlift is 140kg (I'm 20kg above that). When I turn 50 in a couple months I'll be well within intermediate and almost advanced on some lifts.

In any case, I'm not failing yet and still making linear progress. Which standards are you using? Perhaps these charts aren't the ones I should be looking at?

On a useful note, have you tried creatine? Outside of improving technique, this is the only change I've made in my rather unimpressive stab at the Program and my performance has become much more consistent than in the past.

On a less useful note, more qualified people than myself will respond, but I've read this forum long enough to have opinions , so here's a sample:
1. Unless you are interested in a "burnout, recover, re-evaluate" cycles that last weeks, I'd pick my goals and find an existing program that matches them. There are a few on the SS Programming forum. Outside of a variant of SS, 5/3/1 is a popular choice. General Programming forum would be a better place to ask about it. For SS-like program that compliments Judo, this is a sensible program, I hear.

2. Being bad at a good exercise is not a valid reason to add it to your program. There's a tonne of those, getting good at them will require as much focus as the main lifts did but adding them will take away from progress in the big four. Starting Strength incorporates two: chins/pull-ups and power cleans. You're already doing chins, so maybe it's time for power cleans. Coincidently, they are a lot more dynamic than the other exercises, so may provide a sufficient endurance fix.

Hi Trickster, thanks for posting. No, I haven't been taking creatine regularly. I tried it for a couple of weeks back in May and I agree it seemed to help. I'm a little cash-poor at present but when I get paid I think that's a good idea. I could probably also do with some protein and BCAAs - again, a financial thing.

Thanks also for the Judo forum link, that's an interesting program - although really it's just a hybridised SS. Interesting, nonetheless.

Here is something to ponder from your goal perspective. Your son is 3 and you've been running SS for 3 months approximately. Unless your son's birthday is in the next 2 months, you will more than likely be at the end of LP by then. Then you pick a program where you can at least maintain your strength and start to cut the belly. And get a prowler. So now you have just added 6 more months to "looking" svelte like the younger dads. Get a prowler. So before you son turns 5 you will be strong and svelte, and if you follow the running theme in this post you will have your conditioning back. Get a prowler.

I can relate. 5'11" 250lbs 50yo But I don't have the kid so I don't need the speed of a true cut My youngest just graduated college. I am being patient and slow.

Hi Rherington, and thanks for posting. You're probably right about sticking with the strength program until the end of LP. That makes sense. And if I start taking creatine/protein/BCAAs then that could go on a few months yet.

As for a prowler. Thanks for the tip. I'd never heard of them before and checked it out on Amazon. Man, it looks like a torture device of some kind. Truth is, the prices are a bit high for me at present and I honestly cannot think of where I would be able to use it! But thanks for the tip, anyway.

Thanks to everyone for your posts!

[Mac Ward]

is it realistic to think a 49 year-old will be at the end of LP in 5 months? Really, I'm asking.

No, not unrealistic at all. Ability to recover is what determines the level of advancement. If OP is able to add weight to the bar every trip to the gym for a year, then he isn't done with LP. If he stalls in 3 months, then he is. Ability to recover while adding weight to the bar determines the level of advancement.

In any case, I'm not failing yet and still making linear progress. Which standards are you using? Perhaps these charts aren't the ones I should be looking at?

This is the standard I'm using. Who cares what some document somewhere states? If you can add 15lbs a week, WHY WOULDN'T YOU?

Intermediate ABILITY is different than Intermediate ADVANCEMENT.

If it's good enough that Lon Kilgore thinks you have intermediate ABILITY and you want to move to intermediate PROGRAMMING instead of using your genetic ability to go further, FASTER, than try it and see.

[Magma]

No, not unrealistic at all. Ability to recover is what determines the level of advancement. If OP is able to add weight to the bar every trip to the gym for a year, then he isn't done with LP. If he stalls in 3 months, then he is. Ability to recover while adding weight to the bar determines the level of advancement.

This is the standard I'm using. Who cares what some document somewhere states? If you can add 15lbs a week, WHY WOULDN'T YOU?

Intermediate ABILITY is different than Intermediate ADVANCEMENT.

If it's good enough that Lon Kilgore thinks you have intermediate ABILITY and you want to move to intermediate PROGRAMMING instead of using your genetic ability to go further, FASTER, than try it and see.

Good point, Mac. In fact, this is the first time I've read anyone making a distinction between ability and advancement. So I was definitely unclear about that. And no, I'm not in any rush to move to intermediate programming yet, although I admit I had my eye on it.

And you are right also about my continuing to add 15lbs per week, probably if I get some creatine that could continue for some time yet.

Back to my endurance/cardio 'issue': on Saturday my girlfriend persuaded me to accompany her to a spinning class (I used to do them pre achilles blow out). After last week's high rep 'experiment' I was cautious. Sure enough, I practically died in the saddle, but managed to stay upright and peddling for the full 45 mins. We're having a heatwave here in the UK, which didn't help as there was only one fan for the entire class. We then took a swim and so I was dead on my feet for the 4 mile walk home.

I missed my Monday workout and did Tuesday instead. Contrary to all advice here I decided to repeat last week's high rep workout and see how it felt. This time I managed Squats of 3x10 at 50kg without much problem, bench 3x10 at 40kg and bent row 3x8 at 50kg. All without much difficulty. My conclusion being that Mac is again right, that 'Cardio isn't a long term adaptation'. I'll excuse myself again here by repeating that having spent most of my adult life with a good level of cardio/endurance, this was the first time I felt such a massive deficiency and, as a result, it freaked me out.

But Mac's good sense has stuck. Thanks Mac. Maybe for vanity/ego's sake I'll do a high rep workout once per fortnight or something, just to reassure myself, but on your advice I've been rereading the various resources here and I need to 'get back on the program. Maybe I needed to get over this mental bump in the road just so I could get my mind straight and focus again on the long term goals.

As for Lon Kilgore's charts, it's possible you're tougher than me (is USMC some kind of military thing?), but I occasionally need to flatter myself to get myself off my ass and down the gym. And Lon's chart has had a role to play in that. My current goals are simply the 'advanced' weights he lists for 40 year olds!

Thanks again, Mac (and all else who have contributed). I appreciate you sticking with this thread.

Now then, what about the front squat?
And rows instead of powercleans?

[Mac Ward]

Front Squat doesn't work as many muscles as the BS, so why waste your time with it? If you want to be an Oly lifter, train the FS. If you want to get stronger, without wasting time in the gym doing extra stuff, stick to the program

If you have exercise A.D.D., and simply have to do more. try it and see for yourself.

As for the Rows, if you can't do the powercleans, and you are unable to recover enough in 48 hours to do another set of 5 DL at 5lbs heaver than the previous session, Rows are a viable alternative. Make sure you are doing them properly - the kind that start from the floor, keep doing your chins as well. Search this site or search the internet. They are commonly referred to as Pendlay Rows.

USMC = United States Marine Corps. I'm currently in Afghanistan. I interact daily with countrymen from the Royal Marines and the Royal Air Force. Solid group of warriors in my opinion.

[RandallEW]

You wouldn't happen to be in Bagram by any chance? I'm here for 3 more months yet and would love to meet you.

[Mac Ward]

Leatherneck. Too balmy in Bagram.

[Magma]

USMC = United States Marine Corps. I'm currently in Afghanistan. I interact daily with countrymen from the Royal Marines and the Royal Air Force. Solid group of warriors in my opinion.

45 years old and on active service? Man, don't they give you guys a break! My brother was in 1st armoured in Iraq 1, retired at age 45 and wanted to rejoin for Afghanistan and Iraq 2. They didn't accept him, of course, but he tried.

Yes, I may have a little exercise ADD. When I hit my current goals the first time round I was feeling it. This time, after resetting and building back up, everything is far more solid and the 3x5 workouts don't blow me out quite as much. Hence I added chins and dips, but could probably add more. Reason I considered front squat was the legs (thighs, mainly) didn't feel as strong as they should when I tried a set, so I thought it might work as an assistance for back squat progress. I seem to remember the book saying the front squat works different muscles to back squat.

Keep safe, Mac, and thanks again.

[Mac Ward]

Yes, I may have a little exercise ADD...Hence I added chins and dips, but could probably add more...I seem to remember the book saying the front squat works different muscles to back squat.

I removed the garbage from your post for you...

And thanks for the sentiments.

[Stefan Rott]

I don't want to live forever, I want to live forever unassisted.

This! I know a few old people, who were very endurant during their lifetime, but they were never strong. Today, at age of 70-80 they can't even move around without help, they have to use wheelchairs or rollators. Getting out of bed is a pain in the ass to them, muscle atrophy sucked them down.
Even if one has no specific goal for what he/her does strengthtraining, moving around unassisted when getting older IS the goal everyone should have in mind.

[Mac Ward]

Besides, I know my daughter. God help me if I have to depend on her.