Push press is superior :D

[yellowmamba]

I've found that the push press is probably a better exercise for the novice than the press, particularly once you come to your second or third stall.

Why?
-> Linear progression lasts much, much longer than with the press
-> It allows you to overcome the initlal sticking point. This in turn allows for greater weight used and corresponding greater development of the triceps and the muscles that support heavy weight overhead
-> The deltoids responsible for the initial portion of the lift are probably better trained with higher reps and autoregulation than in a strict linear progression style. I've found dumbbells to superior to barbells in deltoid strength development.
-> The push press trains explosiveness

No need to flame here. Just my opinion, friendly banter sought.

[Mark Jamsek]

I agree. Though I cycle both in my primary bench supplement slot, as well as DB press.

I think more benching is better for the novice as a primary lift, with the abovementioned presses used as supplemental work, but I'm biased towards powerlifting. Though, as you point out, DB work is better for hypertrophy, and push presses better for intensity and power. So even if you're just lifting for strength, aesthetics, or athleticism, use them all.

[Kregna]

Dude why are you even on this forum? You are clearly here to start arguments

[Squeakyguy]

Eat the pepper Kregna.

I guess the argument against the push press would be that there's little way to regulate the amount of knee flexion used to aid the beginning of the movement (except on your own, but when a weights heavy, you're gonna cheat more). You might be getting "stronger," but if that means you're just more explosive out of the bottom, what does that mean for your deltoid development.

So wait, are you doing dumbbell presses or push presses?

This argument is so similar to the press v. press 2.0 debate we had on this forum maybe 2 months ago and probably several times before that.

[yellowmamba]

Eat the pepper Kregna.

I guess the argument against the push press would be that there's little way to regulate the amount of knee flexion used to aid the beginning of the movement (except on your own, but when a weights heavy, you're gonna cheat more). You might be getting "stronger," but if that means you're just more explosive out of the bottom, what does that mean for your deltoid development.

So wait, are you doing dumbbell presses or push presses?

This argument is so similar to the press v. press 2.0 debate we had on this forum maybe 2 months ago and probably several times before that.

The thing with the push press is that a deeper dip isn't necessarily better. There comes a point where it will hurt more than it helps. So it will pretty much auto-regulate itself so that you will be dipping pretty much the same amount each time.

There really is no reason for the relatively weaker deltoids to inhibit development of the triceps, traps and the other muscle groups involved in supporting heavy weight overhead. It is probably best to train these separately. In addition, implementing the push press will help to build explosive power, an element that isn't present in the standard press.

I've made the most progress improving deltoid strength through doing higher rep sets with dumbbells and progressing with an auto-regulated approach. I do this twice a week for sets of 8-12, as well as barbell pressing once a week for 3 sets of 3. This approach probably works better than endlessly stalling and deloading, and micro-plating probably introduces excessive CNS fatigue.

A general approach I have come to use is push-pressing and dumbbell pressing twice a week, and barbell pressing once a week for lower reps (3x3).

@ Kregna: I'm starting a discussion based on my experience. If you want a Starting Strength and low-bar squat jizzfest, the Q and A forum is more suitable for you.

[Squeakyguy]

How are you measuring progress and "deltoid strength?" If what you're doing is helping you press heavier weights overhead, that's great news. My sister has only been able to progress on the press with sets of 3, and even then it's stalled from time to time, so I'd be interested to try some of your stuff.

Here's my question, though: if your assistance work is benefiting your deltoid strength, then you will be able to press heavier weights and overload the lockout muscles that way. If you do deltoid assistance work, but then also barbell push press for 3 sets of 3 weekly (taking the delts out of the movement), how do you know you've gotten a stronger set of delts? You may be push pressing heavy weights to lockout, but now you've got weak ass delts that can't get anything off your shoulders.

I guess the thought is that if your triceps and traps can lockout your benches and presses, but could conceivably lock out heavier weights if you got off the shoulders stronger, you should strengthen your delts to get off the shoulders stronger. A good exercise for this is the barbell press. If you can get off the shoulders, but can't lock that weight out, you could train that with (you guessed it) a heavy press. Particularly when you're a novice, and can grow in strength from workout to workout by eating a bit.

When you're less a novice, and it would be beneficial to you to have larger shoulders to improve muscle fiber angles and have less ROM concerns, then assistance work targeted at hypertrophy may be a good option for you.

Cleans, jerks, and snatches are excellent for explosive power, and are often used for just such a purpose. Push presses favor explosiveness, but omit raw pressing strength, which is what I want to develop.

This is, once again, a conversation about what your goals are, and selecting the movements which will help you achieve those goals. Like we talked about 2 months ago. Neither press is superior

[Patrick Stroup]

I agree. Though I cycle both in my primary bench supplement slot, as well as DB press.

I think more benching is better for the novice as a primary lift, with the abovementioned presses used as supplemental work, but I'm biased towards powerlifting. Though, as you point out, DB work is better for hypertrophy, and push presses better for intensity and power. So even if you're just lifting for strength, aesthetics, or athleticism, use them all.

+1

[Winona77]

I wanted to start a similar thread once too, but thought better of it because of the responses it would bear. Reading through Mark's Q+A threads, the common answer I found was that it used too much leg muscles. While I understand that to be true, it's much like the chin up: you can't rely on biceps alone to get over the bar. A novice with a 110lb press 2.0 isn't suddenly going to be able to push press 300lbs with lockout, and if they can, I'd have to imagine that the extra spinal loading will just help in our common goal-- to get as strong as possible, and move the most weight we can.

The only arguments I see against the push press is: 1) it can be dangerous if you can't lockout the weight with an explosive push (especially with out bumper plates) and 2) we're already exhausting the spine/legs with our other movements.

[Squeakyguy]

I wanted to bring up n=1, but hsilman did it better.

[Shaun]

I find the push press doesn't increase anything else and is only really something fun to do once in a while to see how much it has increased by (assuming your bench and press has also increased).