SSCAC: Strength & Endurance SSCAC: Strength & Endurance

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Thread: SSCAC: Strength & Endurance

  1. #1
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    Default SSCAC: Strength & Endurance

    Part I - Jonathon Sullivan, MD, PhD, SSC, kicks off the 2017 SSCAC Literature review: bioenergetic, cellular, and organellar adaptations.

    Part II - Austin Baraki, MD, SSC, discusses cell signaling and gene expression in terms of strength and endurance

    Part III - John Petrizzo, DPT, SSC, discusses the systemic and cardiovascular adaptations to strength and endurance training.

    Part IV - CJ Gotcher, SSC, discusses how performance changes with endurance training vs strength training.

    Part V
    - Consensus statement and discussion.

  2. #2
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    When will the other speakers' videos be posted? This was really good.

    Thanks, Dr. Sullivan.

  3. #3
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    You think that was good? Wait til you see what Gotcher, Petrizzo and Baraki have to say. My shit was just the boring-ass groundwork. Those guys will bring it home.

    Very soon.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathon Sullivan View Post
    You think that was good? Wait til you see what Gotcher, Petrizzo and Baraki have to say. My shit was just the boring-ass groundwork. Those guys will bring it home.

    Very soon.
    Cool.

    Over the years, I've memorized, (and forgotten) the Krebs Cycle FOUR times!. Please note the "forgotten" part. It was good to exercise my chemistry muscles again.

    WW

  5. #5
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    Default Metformin and ampk

    Quote Originally Posted by stef View Post
    Part I - Jonathon Sullivan, MD, PhD, SSC, kicks off the 2017 SSCAC Literature review: bioenergetic, cellular, and organellar adaptations.

    Part II - Austin Baraki, MD, SSC, discusses cell signaling and gene expression in terms of strength and endurance

    Part III - John Petrizzo, DPT, SSC, discusses the systemic and cardiovascular adaptations to strength and endurance training.
    So.....since ampk inhibits mTOr, is it then contraindicated to be taking a ampk activator such as metformin...while attempting to barbell train?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Burnett View Post
    So.....since ampk inhibits mTOr, is it then contraindicated to be taking a ampk activator such as metformin...while attempting to barbell train?
    That...is a request for medical advice, which I am not inclined to dispense.

    I would simply say the following:

    1. If your doctor thinks you should be on metformin, who are we, if not fools, to say otherwise?
    2. Inhibition of mTOR by ampk or any pharmaceutical agent is not complete inhibition...or you'd be dead.
    3. If you are on an agent that might indirectly inhibit mTOR, you might be particularly interested in interventions that stimulate mTOR....like BCAAs and strength training.
    4. Are you aware of any dispositive data in the literature on the effect of metformin on strength training in actual training humans? I am not...but I haven't looked.
    5. I have clients on metformin. I haven't noticed any particular deleterious effects in these Masters. YMMV.
    6. This is interesting. I do not vouch for it in any way whatsoever. I merely point it out: Metformin and Muscle Growth | IronMag Bodybuilding Blog
    7. If you have to take metformin, what are you going to do? Not train?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathon Sullivan View Post
    That...is a request for medical advice, which I am not inclined to dispense.

    I would simply say the following:

    1. If your doctor thinks you should be on metformin, who are we, if not fools, to say otherwise?
    2. Inhibition of mTOR by ampk or any pharmaceutical agent is not complete inhibition...or you'd be dead.
    3. If you are on an agent that might indirectly inhibit mTOR, you might be particularly interested in interventions that stimulate mTOR....like BCAAs and strength training.
    4. Are you aware of any dispositive data in the literature on the effect of metformin on strength training in actual training humans? I am not...but I haven't looked.
    5. I have clients on metformin. I haven't noticed any particular deleterious effects in these Masters. YMMV.
    6. This is interesting. I do not vouch for it in any way whatsoever. I merely point it out: Metformin and Muscle Growth | IronMag Bodybuilding Blog
    7. If you have to take metformin, what are you going to do? Not train?
    Your reluctance to dispense medical advice is clearly warranted and I did not state the circumstances or reasons why I take Metformin. This is critical information for any reasoned response.

    Since mTOR activation and participation is essential for normal physiology, it is rightly said that complete inhibition either impossible or undesirable. Metformin inhibition acts partially and only in one of many ways. mTOR signalling is complex. However, fact remains that mTOR inhibition is a target of cancer therapy and this is being vigorously pursued. The implication is that it may be imiportant in cancer prevention or suppression, a very important subject and much data already acquired . Your observations in practice beg the question be adequately and rigorously investigated because Masters invevitably will be taking this drug in greater numbers. They will also be confronted with other strategies for anti cancer and anti againg therapies, including some form of fasting.....seeming anathema to SS participants and bodybuilders.

    My thinking is that Metformin is useful for a number of it's pleotropic effects, AMPK activation among them, as well as enhanced insulin sensitizing. Yes, there are adverse effects and should be considered. But among agents Metformin safety is one of the most long term evaluated....if that's any consolation. Even if glucose utilization and disposition is improved with training it may still be useful to be on Metformin.

    complicating matters further are the studies coming out which show the reductions in all cause mortality, including cancer, related to resistance training, perhaps even with better results than endurance training (see your email box). However, careful analysis necessary as these studies don't show the strength gains of SS or the recommendations to fuel those gains along with substantial energy substrate increases. that may be one crucial variable.

    Is intermittent fasting, also mTOR inhibition, a fad diet? Perhaps but supported by millenia of practice (see Lindy effect). How about a happy mediium such as Time Restricted Feeding? These things are being promoted , with practice and science backing to the public and being embraced by potential Masters as ways to improve health prospects.

    Frankly, I am confused and conflicted...but that is my nature. I will train. I will presumably continue Metformin but with careful and low dosing as ncecessary, I will fast occasionally and think carefully about TRF which highly compliant. I have run across some studies on Metformin and weight training, but I have to dig it out.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathon Sullivan View Post
    That...is a request for medical advice, which I am not inclined to dispense.

    I would simply say the following:

    1. If your doctor thinks you should be on metformin, who are we, if not fools, to say otherwise?
    2. Inhibition of mTOR by ampk or any pharmaceutical agent is not complete inhibition...or you'd be dead.
    3. If you are on an agent that might indirectly inhibit mTOR, you might be particularly interested in interventions that stimulate mTOR....like BCAAs and strength training.
    4. Are you aware of any dispositive data in the literature on the effect of metformin on strength training in actual training humans? I am not...but I haven't looked.
    5. I have clients on metformin. I haven't noticed any particular deleterious effects in these Masters. YMMV.
    6. This is interesting. I do not vouch for it in any way whatsoever. I merely point it out: Metformin and Muscle Growth | IronMag Bodybuilding Blog
    7. If you have to take metformin, what are you going to do? Not train?

    So there is some...limited data. Lots of hype but few "answers". These tend to show that Metformin blunts the Training Effect
    http://care.diabetesjournals.org/con...1/131.full.pdf

    Metformin Modifies the Exercise Training
    Effects on Risk Factors for Cardiovascular
    Disease in Impaired Glucose Tolerant
    Adults
    Steven K. Malin1, Joy Nightingale1, Sung-Eun Choi2,
    Stuart R. Chipkin1 and Barry Braun1


    However a more definitive study is in the works....unfortunately, too new to have reported results.
    Metformin to Augment Strength Training Effective Response in Seniors (MASTERS): study protocol for a randomized controlled trial

    After busting my ass to review this and other relevant stuff.......it seems the issue is not straightforward as mTOR effects are different and sometimes even opposite than expected depending on the target tissue. This may explain the longevity and better health outcomes with Metformin or RT (ie mTOR activation versus inhibition). Muscle is affected very differently from Liver and fat.

  9. #9
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    Part 5 wrapped up this series nicely. I really appreciate the objective views and the work put in.

    I will say as a former Marathoner that 2 out of the 7 marathons I ran I incorporated RT for 6 weeks of my 18 week marathon training plan (already having an aerobic base built up because all I did was run) and those are the 2 best times I ran and I was not quite as weak as the times previously. Matter of fact I felt great the days following the race.

    Many of my friends are runners and I would like to show them these videos as many of them are so against RT however I am afraid that they may take the consensus slide out of context where it states: "Continuous endurance training interferes with strength adaptations, but strength training interferes only minimally, if at all with aerobic adaptations."

    In other words I am afraid they will think that they should always go and get an aerobic base first and then add in RT later as the RT will have less of an interference on the conditioning they have already achieved rather than getting strength first and then adding in conditioning later.

    Other than a great quality of life (which I can attest to is amazing being stronger), I am not sure how to argue against. Especially considering many of them know how and when I incorporated an RT in my own training plan in the past. I know we would and should like to tell people just drop everything and go get some strength by running a novice LP, however with runners they think every race is their last and don't want to miss out. A couple of months in a Strength LP without running is a life time for someone who is used to hitting the street every morning. Believe me when I say it is very psychological in a runners head if they miss so many days.

    Anyway, Great job Gents, I really appreciate the effort and the sharing of this information with an unbiased approach. That is the way science is supposed to be, learning and exchanging of thought and idea. I work at a life science company and I am amazed at all of the dogmatism and arrogance to prove ones point. I did not sense that at all in this 5 part review.

    Sparky
    Former running lunatic!
    (The struggle is real)

  10. #10
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    Thanks, all, for the positive input. We did indeed work very hard on this presentation. Glad to see it was received in the spirit intended.

    Another great topic coming up in August.

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