Why do you deadlift less on Advanced Novice then TM?

[PrimalFish]

Why does one perform the deadlift less often on the Advanced Novice Program than on the Texas Method? I thought the Advanced Novice program should be more aggressive.

The advanced novice pulling schedule looks like: Deadlift, Chin, Power Clean, Chin. So you there are weeks where you do not deadlift at all.

The TM pulling schedule looks like: Monday-Power Clean, Wednesday-Chin, Friday-Deadlift (some may switch around the DL and PC, but the point remains you deadlift and power clean each week.)

The sets and rep ranges remain the same, so I'm wondering why the Advanced Novice program does not follow the TM pulling schedule? Most intermediate programs seem to have you progressing on the Deadlift once a week, why is Advanced Novice slower then these?

[Michael Wolf]

I think the idea is that for most people, as time goes on, their PC fails to keep up with their DL/their DL gets further ahead of their PC - same idea, two different ways to think about it. So earlier in their progression, the PC is a more potent stressor that also helps drive the DL more. This is of course assuming the person is capable performing the lift with good technique. But even for those people, as time goes on, power - limited much more by genetics - only creeps up more slowly. Strength still helps drive it up, but, the more power dependent movement moves up more slowly, so the gap between PC and DL increases, and PC becomes a less potent stressor over time as it becomes lighter relative to the DL.

But the truth is that I, and I believe a lot of other SSCs as well, don't usually program the DL/Chin/PC/Chin schedule. I generally don't program DL less frequently than once a week in Advanced Novices either, basically following the DL/Chin/PC schedule weekly (or PC/Chin/DL if you prefer). That's what I do, personally, with my peeps who can utilize the clean well enough to make it worthwhile.

[Tom Campitelli]

I made decent progress deadlifting once every four workouts when I was finishing my linear progression. I have often found that squatting had a very real assistance effect for my deads. If I had to dial back squats, progress on deads became much harder. However, I am with Wolf (#imwithwolf) in that I tend to maintain a weekly schedule for deadlifts with novices and and advanced novices in almost all cases. I also have them chin almost every workout provided there is time.

[Michael Wolf]

I made decent progress deadlifting once every four workouts when I was finishing my linear progression. I have often found that squatting had a very real assistance effect for my deads. If I had to dial back squats, progress on deads became much harder. However, I am with Wolf (#imwithwolf) in that I tend to maintain a weekly schedule for deadlifts with novices and and advanced novices in almost all cases. I also have them chin almost every workout provided there is time.

I predict #imwithwolf will be trending on the social medias within the hour.

Also, I was keeping it short, but I usually have my advanced novices chin more than once a week, too, as The Comrade suggests. I usually have them do twice. Once by itself, as the real focus, and once doing a bunch of submaximal sets between DL or PC if they're short on time, or afterwards if they have more time. So, for example, someone who can do 6 chins as a single max set might do, in the "pulling slot:"
Monday: DL 1x5, with 3-4 sets of 2-3 reps between the warm-up sets or afterwards, depending on time.
Wednesday: 4x4 chins.
Friday: Power Cleans without chins, or put the chins from Monday here and not do them between DL.

You could certainly do them all three days, though I usually save that for later.

[PrimalFish]

I predict #imwithwolf will be trending on the social medias within the hour.

Also, I was keeping it short, but I usually have my advanced novices chin more than once a week, too, as The Comrade suggests. I usually have them do twice. Once by itself, as the real focus, and once doing a bunch of submaximal sets between DL or PC if they're short on time, or afterwards if they have more time. So, for example, someone who can do 6 chins as a single max set might do, in the "pulling slot:"
Monday: DL 1x5, with 3-4 sets of 2-3 reps between the warm-up sets or afterwards, depending on time.
Wednesday: 4x4 chins.
Friday: Power Cleans without chins, or put the chins from Monday here and not do them between DL.

You could certainly do them all three days, though I usually save that for later.

Thanks, this is helpful. It's interesting that you seem to keep chins at sub-maximal levels...I tend to BW for 3 sets to failure, but maybe I'll make better progress that way. I was thinking of adding curls on days where you pull from the floor, so DL/curls, Chins, PC/curls, Chins. Something like that.

[Michael Wolf]

Ya, I'll often start with three sets till failure, trying to add a rep to at least one of those three sets, for as long as possible. When that sputters, I'll usually move to either adding weight, or adding more volume but with submax sets, or both, depending on the situation. You can probably add those curls and be just fine.

[tfranc]

What do you guys think about putting the advance novice deadlift on a Wednesday, or second workout of the week, where the trainee is doing a light day with squats?

[Michael Wolf]

What do you guys think about putting the advance novice deadlift on a Wednesday, or second workout of the week, where the trainee is doing a light day with squats?

I like it when first switching to advanced novice. You have one hard lower body thing each day. But eventually squats and DLs become so hard that doing them with only 2 days in between isn't enough: Monday's squats effect Wednesday's DLs; Wednesday's pulls effect Friday's squats - so you're lifting under undue fatigue both Weds and Fri.

So I use it as nice transition phase, but usually put DLs on the Monday after a little while, so the lifter has three days to recover after "heavy squat and DL day" (Mon), and then two days after "heavy squat (plus maybe cleans) day" (Fri).

[tfranc]

I like it when first switching to advanced novice. You have one hard lower body thing each day. But eventually squats and DLs become so hard that doing them with only 2 days in between isn't enough: Monday's squats effect Wednesday's DLs; Wednesday's pulls effect Friday's squats - so you're lifting under undue fatigue both Weds and Fri.

So I use it as nice transition phase, but usually put DLs on the Monday after a little while, so the lifter has three days to recover after "heavy squat and DL day" (Mon), and then two days after "heavy squat (plus maybe cleans) day" (Fri).

Oh cool. So kinda like TM in a small way. I’m guessing you wouldn’t put the deadlift on the third day because of the fatigue built up during the week from squatting heavy twice

[Michael Wolf]

No, you could put it on the third day.