Power cleans maintaining the ability to display power.

[torkins]

] It can't be argued that as more weight is added to the bar, power production has increased through training.

....

We can increase F by deadlifting and squatting and such.

Sure but none of this anything has to do with the power clean. The premise of the SS recommendation for training the power clean is to maintain the F/t quotient as your ability to produce F over some other, slower 't', increases. Fulcrum's question is why does the F/t quotient have to be maintained.. is it somehow degrading as you get stronger? My question is, is there any actual reason to believe F/t for some non-powerclean movement is actually improved by training the power clean?

[Eric Schexnayder]

Sure but none of this anything has to do with the power clean.

Not specifically, no, but the power clean is an excellent exercise for attempting to train power. It cannot be done slowly and so requires the trainee to accelerate the load in order to complete the lift, unlike, say, a speed squat, where the lift can still be finished in any amount of time. The clean can also be done with a lot of weight, so the trainee is forced to use maximum power production to complete the lift. The snatch is similar, but lower weights are typically used (for me at least), though the range of motion is greater.

Fulcrum's question is why does the F/t quotient have to be maintained.. is it somehow degrading as you get stronger?

I don't know if it degrades, but it seems intuitive to me that in the twin case above, the twin who did train the power clean maintains his ability to produce pulling power, whereas the other would have to separately train the clean to achieve this. Maybe someone who never trains the clean but can deadlift 405 lbs can just automatically clean 225 lbs. Not sure.

Now, does it have to be maintained strictly from a strength training standpoint? Personally, I think so. I think it can be useful for helping the deadlift, since the deadlift is the only lift that begins on the floor, with the lifter completely unloaded. The squat and the bench use a stretch reflex which helps with "coming out of the hole", and the press has the little hip motion to get the lift going. The deadlift benefits from neither of these, so raw pulling power must come from sheer commitment to the pull, which I think the power clean would help develop. I'm not a very experienced lifter, but these are my thoughts.

My question is, is there any actual reason to believe F/t for some non-powerclean movement is actually improved by training the power clean?

I really have no idea, but much like strength development, the approach is to develop the modality in a general sense, and I guess assume it translates well outside of the weight room.

[convergentsum]

I don't know if it degrades, but it seems intuitive to me that in the twin case above, the twin who did train the power clean maintains his ability to produce pulling power, whereas the other would have to separately train the clean to achieve this. Maybe someone who never trains the clean but can deadlift 405 lbs can just automatically clean 225 lbs. Not sure.

He cannot. Cleaning is a specific skill requiring a high degree of coordination between many muscle groups. More rapid force production is only part of what goes into successfully training it (and scope for training that attribute is limited anyway).

Now, does it have to be maintained strictly from a strength training standpoint? Personally, I think so. I think it can be useful for helping the deadlift, since the deadlift is the only lift that begins on the floor, with the lifter completely unloaded.

They don't help as much as a heavier variation would, or just more deadlifts.

... raw pulling power must come from sheer commitment to the pull, which I think the power clean would help develop.

There may be something in that, but it would depend a lot on the lifter's attitude.

Cleans are traditionally favoured by athletes such as sprinters, throwers etc. Phenomonology, but there's probably something in it -- but it could be one of those things that applies more (only?) to excellent natural athletes.

If you're not explosive, and can't get your clean above 50% of your deadlift (maybe higher), it's possible that the lift doesn't carry over to anything.

[Mark Rippetoe]

The most impressive thing about convergentsum is his absolute confidence in his position, despite the complete absence of any basis for it.

[convergentsum]

I must project confidence without trying. Maybe it's the British accent.

I can provide a basis for any of my claims if you want. Which were you having the most trouble with?

[76now]

With reference to this very interesting debate, there is another factor to bear in mind.
You've got type 2 muscle fibres - you know the ones we gotta use to make a max squat or deadlift.
But there are a sub group here, and they are ones that fire like blazes, and are down and out in seconds. Not the ones you use for an 8 second deadlift, but the ones you need for a clean, a snatch, a jerk.
So?
Well the type 2 fibres develop much better than the marathoners type 1's. And i believe these fast firers have potential for gaining size.
Case in point - i'm a good chinner, but was always straight up and down, just no v-shape.
When i went into specializing on those above 3 lifts, in time i noticed my arms rubbing on my lats walking on the beach, and yep, i've grown into a great v.
So as well as developing athletic power and explosiveness, the clean is going to improve your look.