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Thread: Any other Judo Players Here?

  1. #1
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    Jan 2013
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    Default Any other Judo Players Here?

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    I am just over a month into Judo, class is 1-1.5 hr. M,W,F. I completely suck. I feel completely uncoordinated, unbalanced and when someone gets me in side control, all I can focus on is just continuing to breath: never mind hooking the leg, grabbing the belt, bridging and rolling. My arms are completely bruised from learning break falling and worst of all, although I am at this very moment, I'm 5-10, 205 pounds and a legit 550+ dead lifter, 260 bencher, 190 Presser and have respectable row, chin up and front squat numbers (and do HIIT every 4-5 days), I feel as if I have the strength of a pre-pubescent girl. The only advantage I can feel from being strong is that occasionally, I get thrown and my sensei will tell me to take a break because that must have knocked the wind out of me, but I would actually be fine (no doubt, partially because the person throwing me simply didn't want to knock the shit out of me). Also, the 15 minute warm get me breathing heavy, but don't REALLY tax me. Mat work and repetitive throwing is a different story.

    I had had my heart set on BJJ, but this Judo school is awesome and judo I think would be super effective in a real world situation, should the need ever arise. Besides, I called local BJJ schools and talked about balance between gym and BJJ and the consensus was somewhere between "you're wasting your time" and "go ahead and keep lifting but technique is all that counts once you come in here". This Judo sensei runs the anti "mcDojo". He is a 6th dan black belt and only takes donations (no dues, no charge to those who cant afford to pay) and doesn't want to teach anyone who doesn't actually want to train and learn judo. He is 78, a former competitor and his son at one point won the world judo championship. One of his black belts moved to Albany and is trying to make the Olympics team. When I spoke with him about lifting, his eyes lit up and he said he was once a 400# squatter (he is ~5-7) and that his son was a 700# deadlifter! I knew I found my dojo at that point!

    So for anyone else who trains judo:

    - Is this normal for a beginner to feel this way (weak, worthless, uncoordinated, dejected and full of mat rash burns?

    - What is your strength training like (I am committed to go to Judo at least 2X/week). I am trying to strike a balance between continuing to get stronger and not being completely fried?

    - Currently I do front squats, pendaly rows, chins, bench, press, and deads. Assistance is dumbbell inclined bench (alternate with dead pin bench press) and SLDS. Is there an exercise I should either add in or replace that is a "must have" for judo? Back squats are not an option due to bad hips.

    - How long did you train before you felt confident and got over the fear of "flying"?

    Any other tips, please and thank you!





    -

  2. #2
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    May 2010
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    Murphysboro, IL
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    I don't currently practice Judo, but I spent 6 years or so getting my time on the mat. I started it as a PE course, having had a background in Shorei Goju Karate in high school and got asked to try out for the team in college. So I spent the next 4 years competing in NCAA matches and a couple more hanging around the dojo after graduating. I got to Ikkyu the last step before Shodan (1st degree black belt). Should have stayed the course, but job assignments put me in a Judo desert, and I just never got back to it.

    Sounds like you found a great Sensei and a good dojo from your description of his bona fides. That said, I'm a little surprised by all the Ne Waza ground technique you describe as a newbie. But that may just be some spillover from the BJJ everywhere these days. Most Judo was primarily stand up throws back when I competed. Our team did more ground technique because most other dojos didn't teach it much.

    IMO, Judo doesn't adapt easily to the real world and self defense. It can be done, but unless your Sensei is teaching specific counters to grabbing and punching attacks by adversaries, you'll have to figger this dimension out for yourself. It's not an easy transition. Sorry to sound negative, Judo is a great sport but I found that I had to adapt what I knew for sawdust covered barroom floors when I got to be a cop.

    Now to your questions.

    Yes, newbies feel beat up and clumsy. As for the rashes and scrapes, part of that is the heavy double weave gi jacket. Wash it and bleach it and use a lot of fabric softener to break it in. Your elbows, rib cage, and shoulders will thank you for it.

    Twice a week Judo and lifting work well together. You're a good deal younger than me, and I lift three times a week and teach a stand up form of Jujitsu (Mushin Ryu) twice a week as well. You'll be fine I think. Your lifts look fine, but if you can incorporate an explosive lift like power cleans or high pulls, it can improve the speed and power of your leg and hip throws.

    I would say it was at least 6 months before I got a sense of confidence on the mat.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark E. Hurling View Post
    I don't currently practice Judo, but I spent 6 years or so getting my time on the mat. I started it as a PE course, having had a background in Shorei Goju Karate in high school and got asked to try out for the team in college. So I spent the next 4 years competing in NCAA matches and a couple more hanging around the dojo after graduating. I got to Ikkyu the last step before Shodan (1st degree black belt). Should have stayed the course, but job assignments put me in a Judo desert, and I just never got back to it.

    Sounds like you found a great Sensei and a good dojo from your description of his bona fides. That said, I'm a little surprised by all the Ne Waza ground technique you describe as a newbie. But that may just be some spillover from the BJJ everywhere these days. Most Judo was primarily stand up throws back when I competed. Our team did more ground technique because most other dojos didn't teach it much.

    IMO, Judo doesn't adapt easily to the real world and self defense. It can be done, but unless your Sensei is teaching specific counters to grabbing and punching attacks by adversaries, you'll have to figger this dimension out for yourself. It's not an easy transition. Sorry to sound negative, Judo is a great sport but I found that I had to adapt what I knew for sawdust covered barroom floors when I got to be a cop.

    Now to your questions.

    Yes, newbies feel beat up and clumsy. As for the rashes and scrapes, part of that is the heavy double weave gi jacket. Wash it and bleach it and use a lot of fabric softener to break it in. Your elbows, rib cage, and shoulders will thank you for it.

    Twice a week Judo and lifting work well together. You're a good deal younger than me, and I lift three times a week and teach a stand up form of Jujitsu (Mushin Ryu) twice a week as well. You'll be fine I think. Your lifts look fine, but if you can incorporate an explosive lift like power cleans or high pulls, it can improve the speed and power of your leg and hip throws.

    I would say it was at least 6 months before I got a sense of confidence on the mat.
    Thanks for the reply. The sensei is traditional and teaches "all aspects" of judo, so according to him, ~40-50% ground work. His school is actually called "School of judo, Jujitsu and grappling". Just don't call it BJJ, he get's a little excited and corrects you by saying he teaches traditional judo, and BJJ was derived from judo. When talking with him, I told him that I wanted to learn real world self defense and he said no problem; he teaches more than what is allowed in competition and if I stay long enough, he will make me proficient in leg locks, chokes, etc. As far as the striking aspect, I trained and competed in tae Kwando for 5 years (red belt), but never mentioned it at Judo, as I saw no relevance.

    I will add some high pulls or cleans...how would you suggest programming them (wanting to do as few of these as possible to train explosiveness) ?

  4. #4
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    Oh and watching randori scares the hell out of me (not allowed to participate yet), but I know that that is likely the one aspect that will make adapting to real world most likely, especially if I ever have to throw an untrained person, which is 99.995 of the world.

  5. #5
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    Your Sensei sounds like he has his head screwed on straight, and he is dead on about the Gracies deriving BJJ from Kano's trip to Brazil in the early days. Just a word of caution on the self defense part. Don't let yourself get too tied up with throws, chokes, and locks. If there are multiple assailants (which is the case 40% of the time), immobilizing yourself with one guy allows the other guys to clean your clock. Stay agile, mobile and hostile in an engagement. Escape from or break any holds or grabs on you and retreat when you can. Especially when facing more than one assailant.

    I'd say doing an explosive lift once a week with a 5-3-1 routine would strike a good balance for training the speed and power that will help you with not doing too much for recovery.

    Randori will go fine once you can learn to not stay too tight in the arms. There's a big temptation to lock out your elbows to keep the other guy from coming in on you. Try not to succumb to it. Stay loose and exchange throws and other techniques.

  6. #6
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    I would like to do some martial arts training after lifting progress plateaus.

    It sounds like you have put a lot of thought into this and have practical experience.

    Why did you choose and stick with Mushin Ryu Jujitsu over other martial arts styles?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by 凤凰来仪 View Post

    1. I would like to do some martial arts training after lifting progress plateaus.

    2. It sounds like you have put a lot of thought into this and have practical experience.

    3. Why did you choose and stick with Mushin Ryu Jujitsu over other martial arts styles?
    1. IMO, it's very doable. A number of people on this site do just that and a few of them are SSC's.

    2. Practical experience in getting my ass kicked. Once in high school and once in college by multiple assailants both times. Stitches and head trauma and loss of consciousness with a trip to the ER ensued both times. I practiced Karate in high school and besides Judo, dabbled in Shotokan and Isshin Ryu Karate in college. And still got my clock cleaned on campus one night by three football players. Then several dozen fights as a cop. None of which I lost including several with multiple assailants. I had to learn in the School of Knuckles and Know-How that martial arts in a dojo and self defense are not necessarily always the same thing. They share some of the same skills but in radically different venues with and without rules and referees.

    3. Mushin Ryu has many of the throws, chokes, and locks of Judo along with a bunch more that Jigoro Kano took out when he systematized Judo back when. It also includes the hand and foot striking techniques of most forms of Karate. Hence, a very complete art. Some of the throwing techniques are somewhat more complex than Judo. They require some different footwork and are aimed the wrists, fingers, and shoulders. Without the right footwork, the techniques are less effective or fail entirely. It was the small details in this art that kept me at it. It's not a common art, but Hapkido is close in many respects. Their details and underlying principals are different, but they mostly get you to the same place.

  8. #8
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    Great info Mark. Thanks for sharing your insight. I'm in the same boat as 凤凰来仪 and am interested in starting some sort of martial arts type training in the near future. I had considered Krav Maga due to it being developed to address real world scenarios. Do you have any opinion on it?

  9. #9
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    I'm a little leery of Krav Maga. Not because it looks ineffective, quite the opposite. From the way it is marketed and the books I have seen, it appears that KM deals quite well with violent attacks like strikes and tackles and with weapons. It was developed as a battlefield art for the IDF after all. My reservations about it are that it does not seem to have a more measured response for low level and intensity attacks like grabs, shoves, or gropes. Getting medieval on someone with an eye gouge or throat rip for someone who simply grabbed your wrist just might land the defender in a criminal charge themselves for over-escalating the counter or response to such an opening of an engagement. Especially in many of the "enlightened" urban prosecutorial venues.

    As I understand it, Nick Delgadillo here is a practitioner and teaches KM. As such, his take on this art would be more authoritative.

    As I said to 凤凰来仪, however, Hapkido is a very complete and relatively easy to find art with dojangs in many places in the US. Just beware of the McDojo with lotsa trophies in the window, contracts, and fees for testing for belt and rank advancement.

  10. #10
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    starting strength coach development program
    So i never actively did Judo, but my gym actually is part of a big judo school here in Germany and so all my training partners are almost excl. Judoka. Sometimes i attended their training for fun, or as they'd say a human punching bag.

    Your skin will adapt to the scratches and mat burns, that's what i can tell you.
    if you are fighting against a good judoka you should feel weak. Judo ist mostly about exploiting your opponents body position / leverages. So with good technique you can accomplish very much. (As with weightlifting more or less).
    They train a lot of pulling movements that include grip strength training. (Rope Climbing without legs)

    For self defense i think judo is really limited by the vast set of rules within the sport itself. The guys at my gym are highly competitive athletes. They have their technique/ ruleset engraved so hard into their mind, that they don't think outside of this realm.
    We sometimes do MMA classes and they often just don't expect attacks that are not judo specific... Punches etc.

    And they all go for HLM approaches or something similar.

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