Strength and Fighting with Nick Delgadillo | Starting Strength Radio #14

[Nick Delgadillo]

I don’t entirely agree with this. Muay Thai and boxing are sports, and they’re effective in their own context. For people who want to get really good at Muay Thai, they’ve got to train Muay Thai... but if you think you’re going to get into a confrontation in a bar with a guy who’s exactly your weight to the pound and is going to stand upright and trade blows with you slowly over three minutes and then take a break, you’re dreaming. The problem is that people see kickboxers do well in competitions that are structured like kickboxing competitions and assume that translates to a real fight. They miss that, critically, kickboxers aren’t allowed to go for the eyes, don’t headbutt or tackle, and attack while the opponent is looking right at them in a well-lit room. So this kind of thing catches on as practical self-defense, even though it’s really meant as sport.

I don't think I said anything that's in disagreement with this at all.

The biggest determining factor in winning a street fight is experience and how willing you are to apply violence. They go hand in hand - the people who've done it a bunch are more willing to go further and more effective at it. Trying to match an art, system, style, etc, to street fighting is fun to talk about, but none of it matters in the absence of experience on some level with violence.

[Mark E. Hurling]

That was a great listen. What do you think of IMPACT Self Defense, especially for women? It's no substitute for years of training (though I think even a few months of grappling can make a huge difference against an untrained attacker on the ground), but it struck me as useful for giving you an idea of how to respond in the sudden, extreme stress of being attacked, which is entirely different from respectfully facing off someone in your school or even sparring in a tournament.

I think a lot of non-grapplers would claim that you shouldn't end up on the ground in a street fight where multiple attackers are involved, in which case I imagine you want to (in essence) strike and run. Do you take those scenarios into account in any way?

I've seen IMPACT before and I agree with Nick with the following reservation. There's a brief video showing an engagement using the protective gear on an attacker and a woman defending herself. Hopefully The Powers That Be will permit this to be posted to better illustrate the issue I have with what I saw.

http://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/se...e&action=click

The defender lets herself get drawn into the preliminaries of The Monkey Dance with the attacker's verbal assaults and taunts. This is classic male (and with primates in general) conduct before coming to blows. A dominance game to intimidate the other and establish himself as the Alpha. Right from the get-go the defender simply needs to back off and make noise to attract help and/or attention. Not announce it after letting the attacker ramble on with a bunch of BS. Keep the attacker in sight as the defender gets the Hell out of Dodge. If IMPACT trains women that way, and given the scripted sounding palaver of the woman defender, it sounds like they do, then they are doing a great disservice to the women they train.

[Nick Delgadillo]

I've seen IMPACT before and I agree with Nick with the following reservation. There's a brief video showing an engagement using the protective gear on an attacker and a woman defending herself. Hopefully The Powers That Be will permit this to be posted to better illustrate the issue I have with what I saw.

http://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/se...e&action=click

The defender lets herself get drawn into the preliminaries of The Monkey Dance with the attacker's verbal assaults and taunts. This is classic male (and with primates in general) conduct before coming to blows. A dominance game to intimidate the other and establish himself as the Alpha. Right from the get-go the defender simply needs to back off and make noise to attract help and/or attention. Not announce it after letting the attacker ramble on with a bunch of BS. Keep the attacker in sight as the defender gets the Hell out of Dodge. If IMPACT trains women that way, and given the scripted sounding palaver of the woman defender, it sounds like they do, then they are doing a great disservice to the women they train.

Yeah. Like I pointed out before, the only effective thing about that is getting this girl's heart rate up, making her uncomfortable, and having her make a decision. Beyond that, nothing she did was effective. Very unfortunate, but at the end of the day, handling a pissed off dude will take some training. This is not easy shit to teach, but I would have handled it differently. The hands up passive thing is no good - I would want her to make a huge fucking scene. Point at him and say "stop right there or I will fuck you up" and be able to back it up. Once it gets beyond a certain point, violence is the only answer. If she's my daughter, I want her ready to stab him in the face.

Here's my deal: if I'm going to work with people on self defense, it needs to be all-in. Violent, aggressive, and ugly. She needs to have a knife or a gun and be able to fight with it. In the absence of a weapon, she needs to be able to hit hard and grapple well enough that she can get away if the guy gets a hold of her. This is a TALL order for most people. But if you're willing to work toward that level of violence, you can handle less hairy situation. The stuff in this video is mostly theatre and just makes everyone feel nice.

[wiigelec]

Unless of course you think you might enjoy the prospect of rolling on the pavement of a broken glass and gravel strewn surface...

Which is why it is probably a good thing to know how to get on top and stay on top when the fight goes to the ground.

...while maybe dodging the footwear of multiple assailants.

I don't think there are any martial arts that are effective against multiple assailants...

Bottom line: you need to know how to strike (and get struck) and you need to know how to grapple.

[Erik Y]

Some strikes are less effective with a gloved hand rather than a bare hand.

And let’s not forget, some strikes are more effective with a gloved hand. How many times are you going to be able to full-throttle bash someone in the head with your unprotected knuckles? How many kicks to the head are you going to be able to stop with your fingers?

[CommanderFun]

Catching whiffs of the old grappling vs stand-up debate here. Didn't think people still had those arguments anymore. Takes me back.

[Mark E. Hurling]

Which is why it is probably a good thing to know how to get on top and stay on top when the fight goes to the ground.

Why STAY on the ground, even if you are on top? Unless you feel a need to linger there and "teach your attacker a lesson." Sorry, I agree that you need to know how to counter and reverse a takedown and how to do so standing up and on the ground. But you need to not get tunnel vision and accept the attacker's preferred venue of ground fighting. Stop his incoming attack while on your back, reverse or counter it, and get up and out of there.

I don't think there are any martial arts that are effective against multiple assailants...

I can only think of one. Shotgun-fu, and maintaining some distance.

Bottom line: you need to know how to strike (and get struck) and you need to know how to grapple.

No argument from me there. Which is why I practiced both striking and non-striking arts since I was 15, and why I stuck with the art I currently practice and teach. It teaches both striking and non-striking techniques. Hapkido is another one that comes to mind that does likewise.

[Mark E. Hurling]

And let’s not forget, some strikes are more effective with a gloved hand. How many times are you going to be able to full-throttle bash someone in the head with your unprotected knuckles? How many kicks to the head are you going to be able to stop with your fingers?

OK, but your argument is similar to the gi no gi premise. Will you be wearing Muay Thai gloves in an alley or bar when you get attacked? The same can be said of martial arts and teachers who fail to teach or train techniques that do not rely on grabbing a gi or sturdy clothing to execute those same techniques. It took me my first week on the job as a cop to realize that 4 years of competing in Judo had not quite prepared me for non-refereed reality. It then took me a month or so to revise and adapt what I knew to actually get the job done of overcoming an attack, subduing that attacker, and finally handcuffing and arresting that attacker.

[Nick Delgadillo]

OK, but your argument is similar to the gi no gi premise. Will you be wearing Muay Thai gloves in an alley or bar when you get attacked? The same can be said of martial arts and teachers who fail to teach or train techniques that do not rely on grabbing a gi or sturdy clothing to execute those same techniques. It took me my first week on the job as a cop to realize that 4 years of competing in Judo had not quite prepared me for non-refereed reality. It then took me a month or so to revise and adapt what I knew to actually get the job done of overcoming an attack, subduing that attacker, and finally handcuffing and arresting that attacker.

If you know how to fight, it doesn't take very long to apply competitive experience to self defense or fights in "the streetz" or these back alleys you guys all hang out in. It only took you a month to apply your Judo to your job. That's not very long. Most cops spend most of their careers not being able to truly handle someone without some help.

Knowing how to fight means lots of stand up wrestling, proficiency with ground fighting, proficiency with striking, and application under stress. Some paths to getting this accomplished are more efficient than others and some of those aspects carry more weight than others. A dude with no skill at all but lots of experience fighting other people will hurt you way worse than a guy who's spent years in the dojo play fighting with his friends.

[wiigelec]

Why STAY on the ground, even if you are on top?

Because somebody has a hold of you with no intention of letting go. Getting up and running away is not an option until you make it an option.

Ever get in a fight with a high level wrestler?