Need Programming Advice: Need Programming Advice:

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Thread: Need Programming Advice:

  1. #1
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    Default Need Programming Advice:

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    Folks,

    As I have said elsewhere, I am a novice-master, 74 years old, with an arthritic right knee. I have been released by my doctor to squat and deadlift again and am now two weeks into the program. I now own all three of the main SS books and have just done most of the homework I should have completed before starting. I have made several new discoveries but have some confusion for which I would appreciate advice--particularly from Rip or Andy, if listening:

    First, I now get it that at my age, I should not power clean. Loud and clear. With my knee, I didn't want to anyway! And I have seen Rip say that there is no real substitute for the PC. Understood, due to the explosive nature of that exercise. But Rip also says, echoed by Andy in "The Barbell Prescription", that after 3 or 4 weeks of the novice program, doing the deadlift at every session introduces far too much exhaustion for recovery. Having done that for over a week, I completely understand. My quandary is--what movement to perform on alternate "lighter" workouts--in place of the deadlift. My thoughts are:

    Barbell row?
    High Pulls (without any jump)?
    Something else?

    Second, (for later on in my programming--not now) Andy and Jonathon Sullivan in "The Barbell Prescription" list the Concept II rower as secondary in importance for HIIT conditioning only to the prowler and pushing or pulling other sled-type devices. But in one thread or another it seems to me that Rip does not think particularly highly of rowing. I get that. But my problem that I am not able, at my house or in my neighborhood, to push or pull a sled. I do however own a Concept II. Thoughts would be appreciated for when that time comes.

    Also, I have not yet read PPFST, although I own it, so I may find the answer there, but I have not found any advice so far as to when to add HIIT to a novice program for someone my age (again, 74).

    Finally, I know that Rip advises strongly not to allow conditioning to interfere with adding strength--and that fits well with my goal of surviving a couple of years!--but I am 5-10 and 220 pounds and too much of that weight is fat. I think my ideal weight would be 190--and I completely buy into the idea that old people need some fat. I just think I have too much. So I have been combining weight training with 5-8 miles of non-aerobic (easy) walking and 2-3 days in which I elevate my heart rate on the rower to within target limits for 30 minutes or so. And I have been losing weight. Rip tells us that some of that will be muscle loss--and I agree and understand. Any advice as to programming at my early stage? Andy says no conditioning at all in the early stages of rank novice. And I am an old fart to boot!

    Thanks and sorry for the long diatribe,

    Russ

  2. #2
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    First: There is no substitute for the power clean for a younger guy. You don't need to do them, so there doesn't have to be a substitute. Just deadlift every session -- which at your age should be twice a week -- and go up every workout.

    Second: I don't personally like the C2, because I don't like stationary cardio -- I haven't figured out a way to read on a C2. The C2 is as good a cardio device as is available, after the prowler. If you want to use a C2, fine with me.

    Also: I think you do the C2 on one other day per week. No more is necessary, as you will discover when your squats get heavy enough.

    Finally: Conditioning does not provide bodyfat loss, especially at the volume you'll be able to tolerate. For you, bodyfat loss will be a function of diet and muscle mass growth. That's it. Tighten up your diet, and you'll lose some belly.

  3. #3
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    Aug 2019
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    Thanks, VERY much, Rip, for your prompt and thorough reply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    First: There is no substitute for the power clean for a younger guy. You don't need to do them, so there doesn't have to be a substitute. Just deadlift every session -- which at your age should be twice a week -- and go up every workout.

    OK--that explains it perfectly.


    Second: I don't personally like the C2, because I don't like stationary cardio -- I haven't figured out a way to read on a C2. The C2 is as good a cardio device as is available, after the prowler. If you want to use a C2, fine with me.

    Understood. Followup Question: IF I had a prowler and a place to push it--what is your opinion of an old fart using these devices from hell?

    Also: I think you do the C2 on one other day per week. No more is necessary, as you will discover when your squats get heavy enough.

    Any recommendations as to C2 Warmup/Work Intervals/Rest Intervals? for HIIT.

    Finally: Conditioning does not provide bodyfat loss, especially at the volume you'll be able to tolerate. For you, bodyfat loss will be a function of diet and muscle mass growth. That's it. Tighten up your diet, and you'll lose some belly.
    I believe you, because I know you have been doing and training this stuff since Noah kicked the animals off the ark, but I am having a really hard problem wrapping my head around not being able to eat more and "burn" it off my fat red ass--you know the old formula: calories burned/calories eaten. But guess what--will do it your way!

    Also, I now have all your books, plus Andy's and his partner's. Can't tell you how much y'all have helped in getting me off the aforementioned fat ass and back into a positive attitude.

    russ

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comancheria View Post
    Thanks, VERY much, Rip, for your prompt and thorough reply.



    I believe you, because I know you have been doing and training this stuff since Noah kicked the animals off the ark, but I am having a really hard problem wrapping my head around not being able to eat more and "burn" it off my fat red ass--you know the old formula: calories burned/calories eaten. But guess what--will do it your way!

    Also, I now have all your books, plus Andy's and his partner's. Can't tell you how much y'all have helped in getting me off the aforementioned fat ass and back into a positive attitude.

    russ
    If you want to burn enough fat to see appreciable fat loss you're going to have to put in a good hour of LISS or MISS and keep your calories controlled. If you are strong enough to take the hit on strength then go for it. Since it sounds like this is not the case and you aren't exactly a young man that can tolerate that kind of work, you will be better served to manipulate your diet. By that I mean creating a caloric deficit primarily through fat restriction first, carbohydrate intake second, and keep your protein intake high. The protein intake being the most important.

    By the way, how strong are at each lift, including chin-ups?
    Last edited by Robert Santana; 09-06-2019 at 09:36 PM.

  5. #5
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    Aug 2019
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    Wink

    Robert: Thanks very much for your detailed reply.

    Currently, I am only 5 sessions into the program, lifting twice a week--deadlifting twice a week with no olympic movements scheduled--ever. I had an entire year of weight gain as the result of having to have proton therapy for prostate cancer. This in itself was not debilitating, but it is accompanied by two shots of Lupron spaced out over a three month period--which reduce testosterone to zero. Testosterone is back to the mid-300s now, which isn't bad for my age, and my orthopedic specialist has released me [knee] to perform squats and deadlifts. [Can you say: "Old age ain't no joke?"] Thus, my beginning only now.

    You are exactly correct that my SS lifts, starting with the bar two weeks ago, suck like a vacuum cleaner: 80 squat/45 Press/55 Bench/135 Deadlift. I am not yet strong enough to perform even chin-ups, much less pull-ups.

    I have been losing weight (almost all body fat--but I'm sure some muscle as well) steadily for the past six months--dropping from 237 to 217. At 5-10, I would like to weigh 200 again, but I absolutely buy into the proposition that strength is going to be far more important than anything else as I age. In doing so, I have been doing easy walking 35 miles per week and 2-3 sessions of 5K to 10K, moderate intensity, on the Concept II.

    I restrict myself to around 2,300 calories per day--going heavy, as you suggest on protein, taking only creatine as a supplement, and most of the fat coming from a couple of teaspoons of MCT oil per day--which seems to help with hunger pangs. I pretty much had concluded what you advise about limiting fats and carbs and staying heavy on the protein.

    Thanks again to you and Rip for your advice, and have been enjoying yall's videos together.

    Russ

  6. #6
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    You are very welcome. Make sure you keep training and making the best out of the situation. Sounds like you have a suboptimal situation. The best I can tell you is to get whatever weight off that you need to get off so you can eat more and train. This is of the essence.

  7. #7
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    Thanks, Coach. I have given up the rowing and based on advice from Coach Rip, I am continuing the easy walking and have dropped to two sessions per week in order to allow for full recovery. As I said, the testosterone has returned to a pretty good level and workouts have been fine with moderate novice progression. So things are better than I hoped for actually. Main setback will be 2-weeks traveling with only hotel dumbbells and the standard cable machine. So I will do 3 or 4 non-barbell sessions a week--just to keep the blood flowing--and cut back about 20 percent on work sets when I return. So it's going fairly well. And however it goes--I'm keeping it up. Best regards.

    Russ

  8. #8
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    Comancheria; with due respect to Coach Santana, I have to disagree with his suggestion to control calories by fat reduction first, then carbohydrate reduction, but only as it applies to the elderly. I am 70 so closer to your age. All carbs except fiber are utilized as sugar. Too much sugar is not good for those of us of advanced age with reduced metabolic efficiency, when it can contribute to Type II diabetes, oxidative damage to arteries, and even Alzheimer disease. I suggest keeping up your protein but reducing carbs to achieve a calorie deficit.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suwannee Dave View Post
    Comancheria; with due respect to Coach Santana, I have to disagree with his suggestion to control calories by fat reduction first, then carbohydrate reduction, but only as it applies to the elderly. I am 70 so closer to your age. All carbs except fiber are utilized as sugar. Too much sugar is not good for those of us of advanced age with reduced metabolic efficiency, when it can contribute to Type II diabetes, oxidative damage to arteries, and even Alzheimer disease. I suggest keeping up your protein but reducing carbs to achieve a calorie deficit.
    Do you have data on this in resistance training elderly populations on a caloric deficit? Unlikely, there is very little quality data on diet and resistance training and fine details of metabolic response in any population, much less the elderly. If one can maintain training intensity and recovery while on a low carb calorie deficit great, but if not I am very unconvinced that it provides significant benefit beyond the benefits realized from caloric restriction and resistance training. If you have access to data to the contrary I would be interested.

  10. #10
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    starting strength nutrition camp
    Quote Originally Posted by Suwannee Dave View Post
    Comancheria; with due respect to Coach Santana, I have to disagree with his suggestion to control calories by fat reduction first, then carbohydrate reduction, but only as it applies to the elderly. I am 70 so closer to your age. All carbs except fiber are utilized as sugar. Too much sugar is not good for those of us of advanced age with reduced metabolic efficiency, when it can contribute to Type II diabetes, oxidative damage to arteries, and even Alzheimer disease. I suggest keeping up your protein but reducing carbs to achieve a calorie deficit.
    How did you arrive at the conclusion that all carbohydrates are utilized as sugar in your body?

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