Artificially Weak Deadlifts, Part 1: Perception vs Reality | Robert Santana Artificially Weak Deadlifts, Part 1: Perception vs Reality | Robert Santana - Page 5

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Thread: Artificially Weak Deadlifts, Part 1: Perception vs Reality | Robert Santana

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Santana View Post
    What Rip said and can you please post height/weight and loads lifted on squats and deadlifts?
    Yes, I saw that article linked in another recent post about the deadlift as well.

    I'm male, 21, 5'9", about 135 lbs. I understand that gaining weight is part of making progress, I've gained about 5 pounds since starting three weeks ago.

    On Friday I squatted 135 and attempted 200 on the deadlift, dropping the weight in 10 lb increments down to 170 before I could get it moving to complete a workset for the day. I had completed a five rep set of 190 on Monday which felt difficult, then on Wednesday I did power cleans (up to 65 lbs) for the first time in place of deadlifting. For reference, my day one workset weights were 80 on the squat and 115 on the deadlift which I progressed 10 and 15 lbs respectively for the first three jumps then 5 and 10 lbs respectively after that.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Santana View Post
    Deadlifts go to a weekly progression by the end of the program. This is also outlined in the book. In fact, they increase every 9 days if you follow advanced novice as written.
    Sorry, I should have specified, I'm running an intermediate program, not LP. Specifically, what I think of as an old man's 4-day split spread out over Mon.-Wed.-Fri., so that the "week" is 9-10 days long.

    I'm guessing the answer to my question is that once I've run out the DLs, I should keep on running out the squats while resetting DLs, which is what I took away from PPST. But this issue of an overly heavy squat killing DLs is a revelation to me (and apparently to others as well), so I was wondering if you'd suggest resetting them together.

    Thanks again and sorry for the confusion.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Santana View Post
    Deadlifts go to a weekly progression by the end of the program. This is also outlined in the book. In fact, they increase every 9 days if you follow advanced novice as written.
    Robert, this brings up a question regarding transitioning to intermediate programming. All of the intermediate models in Practical Programming seem to assume a weekly deadlift on intensity day, at least initially. For someone (like me) who's deadlifting on a 9 day rotation, should they go back to a weekly intensity deadlift when starting intermediate programming, or immediately go into a weekly rotation of rack pulls, haltings, and deadlifts on intensity day? (Or a similar rotation using deadlift alternatives like stiff-legs and snatch grips?)

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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weiss View Post
    Yes, I saw that article linked in another recent post about the deadlift as well.

    I'm male, 21, 5'9", about 135 lbs. I understand that gaining weight is part of making progress, I've gained about 5 pounds since starting three weeks ago.

    On Friday I squatted 135 and attempted 200 on the deadlift, dropping the weight in 10 lb increments down to 170 before I could get it moving to complete a workset for the day. I had completed a five rep set of 190 on Monday which felt difficult, then on Wednesday I did power cleans (up to 65 lbs) for the first time in place of deadlifting. For reference, my day one workset weights were 80 on the squat and 115 on the deadlift which I progressed 10 and 15 lbs respectively for the first three jumps then 5 and 10 lbs respectively after that.
    A Clarification | Mark Rippetoe (Rippetoe, 2019)

    Quote Originally Posted by Treg View Post
    Sorry, I should have specified, I'm running an intermediate program, not LP. Specifically, what I think of as an old man's 4-day split spread out over Mon.-Wed.-Fri., so that the "week" is 9-10 days long.

    I'm guessing the answer to my question is that once I've run out the DLs, I should keep on running out the squats while resetting DLs, which is what I took away from PPST. But this issue of an overly heavy squat killing DLs is a revelation to me (and apparently to others as well), so I was wondering if you'd suggest resetting them together.

    Thanks again and sorry for the confusion.
    Have you switched to pulling heavy off of the floor every other week?

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt James View Post
    Robert, this brings up a question regarding transitioning to intermediate programming. All of the intermediate models in Practical Programming seem to assume a weekly deadlift on intensity day, at least initially. For someone (like me) who's deadlifting on a 9 day rotation, should they go back to a weekly intensity deadlift when starting intermediate programming, or immediately go into a weekly rotation of rack pulls, haltings, and deadlifts on intensity day? (Or a similar rotation using deadlift alternatives like stiff-legs and snatch grips?)
    Why are you on a 9 day rotation? Are you referring to advanced novice? How much are you squatting and deadlifting?

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Santana View Post
    A Clarification | Mark Rippetoe (Rippetoe, 2019)



    Have you switched to pulling heavy off of the floor every other week?



    Why are you on a 9 day rotation? Are you referring to advanced novice? How much are you squatting and deadlifting?
    Yes, advanced novice. 335 squat, 395 dl.

  7. #47
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    I can't speak for Rip or Andy but my thought is that because you are hitting a new squat PR twice per week you are therefore squatting heavy twice in a 5 day period. Therefore, the longer lead time allows your back a little more recovery. In contrast, you are squatting heavy once every 7 days on an intermediate program so you can better recover from also pulling every 7 days. This ties to what I wrote about the two lifts having overlapping stress and thus the stress of both should be approached cumulatively rather than individually from a programming standpoint. I'm not sure that this is the reasoning so I'll let Rip or Andy clarify that point. I typically prescribe an intermediate pulling schedule to advanced novices to avoid artificially weakening the deadlift and it works pretty well. Sometimes it's weekly pulling off of the floor and other times it's biweekly partials (more common in trainees >40 years old). Works pretty well in my experience.
    Last edited by Robert Santana; 10-28-2019 at 05:09 PM.

  8. #48
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    Haven't read the whole thread so forgive if I've missed any context. But I agree wholeheartedly about treating squat/deadlift training as sort of a cumulative thing rather than 2 distinct lifts. You can't really make radical adjustments to one without effecting the other. I do think that in many cases squat volume can basically be considered the volume lift for both the squat and the deadlift, while deadlift training can be limited to just a few heavy efforts per week or even per month. This leads to my second point.....these types of issues are nearly impossible to solve/prescribe in a general sense. Pulling volume, frequency, intensity tends to get really really individualized at the intermediate and advanced level and blanket recommendations tend to come with a whole lot of caveats.

    Let me know if you need further clarification on something.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Santana View Post
    The undulation between the squat and the deadlift becomes more important as we get stronger. It's not that you are "babying your squat" it's more that you are managing stress. The two lifts overlap and the squat is less sensitive to the effects of deadlifts because it doesn't start from a stationary position. So what typically happens is a heavy squat will fatigue the low back leaving the lifter unable to break his deadlifts off of the floor. So you want to really approach this like you would approach intermediate programming. We have heavy/light/medium days per lift but I find that it helps to treat the squat and the deadlift as one "collective lift." This isn't 100% true but useful for illustrating the point. Squat and deadlift stress overlap and both must be considered when programming either lift. So if you are squatting lighter to deadlift heavier you aren't detraining the squat, you are managing stress. When it comes time to peak the lifts they will both cooperate just fine.

    So my advice to you is take weight off of the squat and push the deadlift up. You may have to alternate rack pulls with deadlifts, haltings, or deficits (depending on which heavy floor pull you prefer). Haltings are the default recommendation here and they work just fine. The point is that the heavy squat is probably causing too much stress and your floor pull is >500 for reps so I would first lower the squat and if that doesn't work then break up the pull and move to a biweekly progression for your limit pull. Also, what is your height/weight/age/waist circumference?
    Coach Santana,

    Just wanted to let you know that, last fall, your deadlift articles and comments got me to focus on the lift and get it moving.

    In the past, my deadlift training had topped out in the 290's, and there had also been back tweaks and excessive soreness.

    As a "masters" (plus) lifter, too much back stress/fatigue, as you discuss, apparently was my problem (or at least the problem I could fix by taking weight off the squat).

    Before the gyms locked down, I put 40 pounds on my deadlift PR and was starting to think I might get another 25 for a double-bodyweight deadlift.

    A much tighter setup (hamstrings!) was important--but by taking weight off the squat, a tighter deadlift setup was easier anyway because I was fresher.

    To lower the stress, I essentially switched to a 4-day routine, two deadlift days and two squat days. For the deadlifts, I did a triple for the first day workset, then 1x5 at the same weight on the week's second deadlift workout, then up 5 pounds the next week. The squats were lighter, and done only on the days following the deadlifts. (Also cut down on deadlift warmup reps and rested 10 minutes before the workset.)

    When we get back in the gym here in California, I'll have to start over, but I'm excited about it after my experience implementing your deadlift guidance--thanks again!

  10. #50
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    Happy to be of assistance. It's important to account for the collective volume and intensity of both lifts when programming yourself rather than treating them as individual lifts. They both tax the low back and hips so there is overlapping stress hence why some refer to them as assistance exercises for each other. The deadlift tends to be more sensitive to fatigue due to the need to overcome the inertia of the load rested on the floor. So while it may seem like you are sandbagging the squat because it would otherwise go up, the reality is that it will still end up at the same place or maybe even higher if you take extra care with the undulation during training cycles that are higher in volume.

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