squat v deadlift

[mpalios]

It is with great trepidation that I post this question....I have read the blue book chapters on DL and squat (programming chapters = skipped for the old people programming book). I have tried to watch as many of the videos as I can on both moves, and read articles on the site as well, although I've not read all of them.

I had posted a question, before I had read the entire chapters on the Squat and DL, and was very nicely called out to read the book again. So, now that I've done that, I'd like to post my question again, because I'm either dumb or missed it. I hope I can convey the question accurately.

This is from the blue book...."“There is simply no other exercise, and certainly no machine, that produces the level of central nervous system activity, improved balance and coordination, skeletal loading and bone density enhancement, muscular stimulation and growth, connective tissue stress and strength, psychological demand and toughness, and overall systemic conditioning than the correctly performed full squat.” –Starting Strength: Basic Barbell Training (3rd Ed.)"

Here are my questions. They are coming from a place of ignorance.

1) If DL is inferior as a total body movement, why is it limited to 1 work set, and ratcheted down sooner from a volume standpoint compared the squat?

2) The DL *seems* to work arms/shoulders, and upper back much more than the squat. So, if I'm getting 65% of the leg work in the DL as compared to the squat, and MUCH more upper body work in the DL as compared to the squat, how is the squat still considered superior as a total body movement?

Is it because most of the body's REAL muscle building capacity is hips/legs, and the deep squat (just below parallel) works those muscles so much more that it makes up for the lack of upper body growth?

I do know I struggle much more with a properly performed squat vs DL. I also know I am much more confident in my DL than my Squat.

Hope this makes sense. heck, put this question into the next podcast if you want to make an example out of me, and it's easier to speak the answer vs typing.

(PS - gym opens on Saturday, thank goodness....)

[jbackos]

1. Because if you pull a LIMIT set of 5 deadlift, that’s usually all you can handle. If you try to pull much more than that, you will affect the next weeks workouts - all of them. The deadlift is an evil bitch - she takes more than she gives back if you’re not careful.
2. IMO, if you’re getting 65% of your leg work from a deadlift then your hips are probably too high and your hamstrings are not fully loaded. I barely get 10-15% of leg work from deadlifting.

[m s]

How long have you been training? I think you'd figure out the answers over the course of a properly performed LP.

[Oso Rojo]

... The deadlift is an evil bitch - she takes more than she gives back if you’re not careful. ...

Oh that is so true!

MPalios,
The answer is in the information that you posted.

"... no other exercise, ..., that produces the level of central nervous system activity, improved balance and coordination, skeletal loading and bone density enhancement, muscular stimulation and growth, connective tissue stress and strength, psychological demand and toughness, and overall systemic conditioning than the .. squat."

I think of it as the squat teaches real world applications of balance, load management, and adds strength. The deal lift is just raw strength. You only need enough balance to get setup then you will automatically be balanced by the pressure between the floor and the bar, through your arms, torso, and legs. There is virtually no way you can fall over in the dead lift when the weight is one or two inches off the floor. At the beginning of your squat you are using a lot of energy and muscles to keep yourself upright. That's why you use the valsalva breath.

I think trying to pick between a squat and a dead lift is like picking which of your children you like best. It can be done but why? Squat teaches one thing and the dead lift does another.

Now to address your issue of performance of one vs the other. I personally think the squat is a much more technical lift than the dead lift. One of the trainers can jump in here but this is my perception from having to learn them.

The issues of your confidence with dead lift over squat, I think that is basic human survival instinct. I don't think anyone has ever been crushed by a weight sitting on the floor. But may people have been crushed by weights over the bodies! I think everyone with normal human instincts has experienced some fear in a squat. I've ask the big boys at my gym that squat five and six hundred pounds and they said they have fear when things get heavy. This is maybe why the squat is the king of the lifts because it's both physical strength and mental strength.

Bottom line they are both useful and therefore get done. How is your training progressing?

[eddieolong]

The squat is superior because it's harder. It's harder because it's more complex. The deadlift is a simpler movement, a more efficient movement. That being said, you'll typically be able to move more weight than the squat.You fight gravity on the way up, but it helps you on the way down. With the squat, you have to unrack the bar, most likely walk it out, sit down, then stand up, fighting gravity and trying to balance the whole time. If you get in trouble deadlifting, you can just put the bar down, it's not so simple with the squat. The deadlift is a lot like the press in that you start from the bottom of the movement, meaning it's harder to get enough tension in your muscles. If you're going to squat and deadlift in the same day, one should probably be the focus, and the other an accessory (which is why the deadlift is usually a heavy 5, basically using RPE or just trying to add a little too last time. It's a lot of stress on your body and can be difficult to recover from.

[Hayden-William Courtland]

Many good reasons as to why they SQ is superior have been posted thus far in the thread. They do all stem from Oso's quoted text. I would add one other point, and that is that compared to the DL, the SQ uses its muscular contractions over longer ranges of motion.

[Mark Rippetoe]

The squat is superior because it's harder. It's harder because it's more complex. The deadlift is a simpler movement, a more efficient movement. That being said, you'll typically be able to move more weight than the squat. You fight gravity on the way up, but it helps you on the way down. With the squat, you have to unrack the bar, most likely walk it out, sit down, then stand up, fighting gravity and trying to balance the whole time. If you get in trouble deadlifting, you can just put the bar down, it's not so simple with the squat. The deadlift is a lot like the press in that you start from the bottom of the movement, meaning it's harder to get enough tension in your muscles. If you're going to squat and deadlift in the same day, one should probably be the focus, and the other an accessory (which is why the deadlift is usually a heavy 5, basically using RPE or just trying to add a little too last time. It's a lot of stress on your body and can be difficult to recover from.

No, Eddie. First, the deadlift is "harder" for most people than the squat because it's always heavier for novice and intermediate lifters, and it starts with a concentric movement that doesn't have the benefit of the eccentric setup to generate tightness for the maintenance of spinal and hip position. But the fact that the deadlift is "harder" doesn't necessarily make it "better" because there is benefit to the fact that you can train the squat with sets across over a longer ROM using the stretch reflex to help out of the bottom, whereas the deadlift at work-set loads is a grind from a start position that doesn't have the benefit of the ability to set the back in extension while already standing erect in extension. If it was "harder," sets across would not be possible for squats and not deadlifts. And since you are going to squat and deadlift in the same workout for most of your training career, and since both must be progressed together, you'd better get used to the fact that neither can be approached as assistance exercises until you are an advanced lifter, if then.

RPE is complete and utter bullshit -- it's basically giving yourself permission to be a pussy, and has cost lots of younger lifters the progress they could have made had they just gotten under the bar and done the work the program called for based on the previous workout. And training is in fact a lot of stress on your body -- that's how it works. You have to figure out how to structure that stress and the recovery from the stress, according to your level of training advancement. Here's a book that helps with this: Practical Programming for Strength Training, 3rd edition – The Aasgaard Company

But "harder" and "better" are not terribly useful distinctions. Both play an important role in strength training, and personal preference for one of the two is irrelevant to training.

[mpalios]

2. IMO, if you’re getting 65% of your leg work from a deadlift then your hips are probably too high and your hamstrings are not fully loaded. I barely get 10-15% of leg work from deadlifting.

Working with Pete T on technique, and this has never been an issue. I just put 65% to compare it to a 100% leg use in the squat.

How long have you been training? I think you'd figure out the answers over the course of a properly performed LP.

Not long. Like I said above, working with Pete T on Technique and I have a long way to go on the squat.


From the Book, once more...."There is simply no other exercise...that produces the level...muscular stimulation and growth" –Starting Strength: Basic Barbell Training (3rd Ed.)"

This is where my main confusion stems from. If the DL works upper body muscles, in addition to (but not as effectively as) the squat, how does the squat produce more muscular growth? There's no real arm or shoulder stimulation in the squat (as compared to the DL), and the upper back gets much more work in the DL vs the squat. (I think)

Is it bc the ROM is so much greater in the squat for the larger muscles in the body (hips, quads, hams) that it offsets (MY PERCEIVED LACK) of upper body work the squat offers? I hope that makes sense. I swear on all that is holy, I'm not trying to be dense or difficult. Just wanting to learn.

[Mark Rippetoe]

From the Book, once more...."There is simply no other exercise...that produces the level...muscular stimulation and growth" –Starting Strength: Basic Barbell Training (3rd Ed.)"

This is where my main confusion stems from. If the DL works upper body muscles, in addition to (but not as effectively as) the squat, how does the squat produce more muscular growth? There's no real arm or shoulder stimulation in the squat (as compared to the DL), and the upper back gets much more work in the DL vs the squat. (I think).

Because the greatest amount of muscle mass is in the hips and legs, and squats cause more hypertrophy in those muscles due to the ROM, the stretch reflex, and the ability to do sets across.

[mpalios]

Sets across means multiple sets at max workout weight, right? In SS world, 3 sets of 5 reps?

Because the greatest amount of muscle mass is in the hips and legs, and squats cause more hypertrophy in those muscles due to the ROM, the stretch reflex, and the ability to do sets across.