Starting Strength for Women | Ray Gillenwater

[Jake Norman]

I appreciate you making the decision and taking the time to reply, Ray.

1. I read the entire article, clicked the links and checked them out, and looked up your bio and for whatever it means to you, you seem like a knowledgeable chap and I have all the respect in the world for anybody doing what they can to make people strong. If you think that someone forming an opinion that differs from yours must, by definition, be ignorant or have failed to fully pay attention to what you said, then I don't know what to tell you, you will always be right and your statements unfalsifiable. I'm not an enemy of SS, I use it, I lean on it, I respect it, I advocate for it, but I just don't buy into closed orthodoxies. Something can be mostly right, and still a bit wrong.

2. I couldn't care less what you in turn think of me, my resume, my experience, my personal hygiene, my pretty blue eyes or my own lifts - really? If I post a video totalling more than you, Ray, will you defer to my opinion? If I'm bigger and leaner than you but you're stronger, does that make me the authority on physique adaptation and you on strength adaptation? Come on. You decided to respond to my points and as I said, if you want to continue down that track I will happily do so, I don't take either of our time or attention for granted and I appreciate that I've put out a criticism of an article that you've published and while we aren't in the peer review realm, here, that's still something not to take lightly. I'm not backing away from it, I'm offering what I think might be a better path forward. To that end;

Question: Is the Starting Strength method the optimal training protocol for muscular hypertrophy?

We can get into the semantic weeds on the questions around aesthetics and terminology if you like, there might be something interesting to discover there, but I think that this is the key difference between us and so let's cut through the chaff, dispense with the quote mining, and talk about the basic difference, if I've identified it correctly.

Whatever your response, I really do see you and I as on the same team, trying to make people strong, keep them healthy and achieve their physique goals. I think those three things are not identical, that's all.

[Mark Rippetoe]

To answer your questions for Jake, no, he hasn't trained a woman to a 225 deadlift, and no, he doesn't train heavy himself. As a result, he doesn't know how the program actually works and what it actually does. But he's certainly free to advertise his services as a strength coach in his market, and people will continue to hire him. Best of luck to him.

[Matt James]

I appreciate you making the decision and taking the time to reply, Ray.
Question: Is the Starting Strength method the optimal training protocol for muscular hypertrophy?

I don't believe anyone was making that argument. That's not to say that hypertrophy doesn't occur, is it? Which I believe was Ray's point, but he can clarify that if he wants. I mean, we'd expect that as strength goes up, muscular hypertrophy would occur, as there's only so much to be gained through technique and improved muscular recruitment. Of course, this isn't just theoretical, as I suspect virtually anyone who's made a passing attempt at running the program has experienced *some* hypertrophy. That effect may be blunted by sex or age, but it's still there, and noticeable.

[Steven Z]

I still need to go buy new underwear

[Ray Gillenwater]

What happens if a woman's fat deposit is initially in the hips and butt? And if they don't lose weight (they need to eat 1)? So, I uh, know a woman.......who will start SS training soon, who's fat goes straight to the hips/butt. She wants her hips and butt to get a bit smaller. Hope this makes sense.

Have her check out priority three and have her read more about optimizing her nutrition for a recomp. This might be helpful to her, too.

If she hits her protein goal daily, focuses on whole foods, and keeps her fat intake to a minimum, she'll gain weight where she wants it and lose it where she doesn't. Total calorie intake will require a bit of trial and error, but the above focus areas should help her get pretty close to optimal. If she's struggling, have her hire Santana.

Ray, I'm cheap. Do you think it's a good idea to buy the bar for the gym's benefit? They have nearly everything else we need, except for the lightest of barbells. They do have that 33lb one.

If you have a close relationship with the coaches/management, it would be a very nice gesture - especially if they hope to help older women and young people get stronger. Since I know what you do for a living, I say buy it =]

[Ray Gillenwater]

Whatever your response, I really do see you and I as on the same team, trying to make people strong, keep them healthy and achieve their physique goals. I think those three things are not identical, that's all.

There is a reason that we do not allow coaches to become SSCs that haven't done the program. There is a reason that we don't allow entrepreneurs to become franchise owners that haven't done the program. Doing it yourself is an extremely informative experience.

You seem to be thoughtful and articulate. If you combine your brainpower with practical experience, your views will change. Do the program, coach others, and then we will be on the same team. If at that point you have a different point of view to share, I want to hear it, because it will be based on your real world observations - not your theoretical understanding.

[mpalios]

If you have a close relationship with the coaches/management, it would be a very nice gesture - especially if they hope to help older women and young people get stronger. Since I know what you do for a living, I say buy it =]

I do not have a close relationship with management, and wouldn't be totally surprised if the place was out of business in 6 months. Ironically enough, I do have a very good relationship with the trainer that 'rents' the space though. He's a great guy. Just not a SS coach.

[Jake Norman]

There is a reason that we do not allow coaches to become SSCs that haven't done the program. There is a reason that we don't allow entrepreneurs to become franchise owners that haven't done the program. Doing it yourself is an extremely informative experience.

You seem to be thoughtful and articulate. If you combine your brainpower with practical experience, your views will change. Do the program, coach others, and then we will be on the same team. If at that point you have a different point of view to share, I want to hear it, because it will be based on your real world observations - not your theoretical understanding.

I am open to that possibility, I don't think I know everything and I am still learning and developing. I am working essentially (I coach group classes in addition to my own training so I just can't dedicate myself physically fully to strength, my main athletic goal is to not fall apart on a weekly basis) the SS programme as an intermediate, and I have coached double figures of women past 100kg squat and 130kg deadlift, using essentially SS. But I don't believe everything I believed 3 years ago and I doubt I'll believe everything I believe now in another 3 years, and I am constantly talking about the importance of practical experience.

It doesn't appear to be open to me to become an SSC regardless as I'm European, but I won't stop using SS, talking about SS, telling people to buy the blue book or BB Prescription if they're older, and doing the best that I can do in my little commercial gym corner of the world. We have different perspectives and maybe mine will shift to align with yours and Rip's over time, maybe it won't, I'm glad we can be civil and I will still be referring my female clients to your article because as I said, despite spending most my energy criticizing the few points of difference I take with it, I think it's a great article and does good work in the battle to get more women under a barbell.

[Ray Gillenwater]

I am working essentially...the SS programme as an intermediate,

I have coached double figures of women past 100kg squat and 130kg deadlift, using essentially SS.

Which non-essential parts did you remove from the program?

It doesn't appear to be open to me to become an SSC regardless as I'm European

It's open to anyone that's willing to do and coach the program. Not their interpretation of the program, but the program. Steve Ross is in Belgium, in case you want to check in with him in person on your own technique and coaching style.

I have coached double figures of women past 100kg squat and 130kg deadlift

Now we can discuss specifics. If you deviated from SS style programming, that's less relevant for this conversation since you achieved a good outcome for these clients. The main points to discuss are: What version of the squat and deadlift did you coach? For the previously untrained clients, do you have any before and after photos, scans, or measurements?

My assertion is: any woman that goes from untrained to a 185+ squat and a 225+ deadlift, for sets across, with our version of the technique, will see a drastic change in her physique. Most notably in her posterior chain.

If you have examples where this hasn't worked, I'd be interested to hear about it.

Any women trainees, coaches, and/or gym owners care to share their experiences? Has this ever not worked for anyone?

[Mark Rippetoe]

and I have coached double figures of women past 100kg squat and 130kg deadlift, using essentially SS.

But you never noticed that their hips got bigger.