Starting Strength for Women | Ray Gillenwater

[Jake Norman]

I thought the conversation was over, and I was really glad it wrapped up without acrimony, I've had a niggling worry that I might just be booted from the forum if I keep pushing at this closed door, and it's a resource that's very useful to me for things that are worth more than dying on this particular hill. I just wanted to state that I have that experience.

I very definitely did not give that information to get through the gatekeeping and into the conversation, that would be tacit approval of that mode of discourse which I do not give.

That said, it would be petulant and ungracious of me not to respond now, and I am still as grateful for your time and responses as I was to begin with.

I honestly find the quoting thing a hassle and I think it encourages out of context, aha! point scoring, which doesn't interest me. I'll try not to skip anything you brought up.

It's not so much a matter of removing things I deem non essential from the program as of me workomg out of a commercial high street gym. I deal with a correspondingly more broad cross section of the gym going public than I see attending strength and power style gyms, which I frequent myself when I can, to meet people in the local industry and because I like those places. But I like working with normal people, if there is such a thing, even more. My bread and butter is PTing, and I do what I can to shoe-horn strength training into that work.

Working out of the kind of gym I do, It's not always that I get the opportunity to put the full SS protocol into practice, because very few people will sign up to 3 workouts per week, no more no less, and fewer still will take even a couple of weeks of 3 session per week coaching to get the starting lifts right and safe. I'm not an SSC but in my own limited experience I've seen some who can pretty much work the NLP after an hour without much oversight, and the occasional ones who are relearning how to squat, 3 times a week, 6 months in. Could be my coaching, but then whence the one hour prodigies? Right now, with COVID and all, my roster is extremely slim, but it's actually quite weighted towards people I've got working strength, or who I've taken through the novice phase and are now working some mix of strength and HST.

I currently have a total of 11 clients, not counting a boy I just took on free of charge, of which I have 7 working the NLP with minor variation in a couple of their programmes; 1 arm DB farmer walks are a personal must, and I'm happy to post hoc justify that prejudice with reasons and such, DB side lateral raises and a bicep curls for two guys, a couple of girls doing BB hip thrusts, one guy who I have working a lighter, volume style day because he kept 'stalling' on way too low weight, and after some experimentation he just responds better and is progressing again with that protocol, so that's that. I know that by definition, because these are variations, you'll tell me by reverse engineering from the answer you already know is right which is 'work the programme as it is' that there's some confounding factor that I'm failing to identify, or that I'm selling these clients short by introducing junk pointless movements to their workouts. You might be right, I might be a shit coach, this might be the conversation that convinces me of that, I don't know, but I have empirical and rational justifications that in my view make everything I do as a coach necessary. That doesn't mean I'm right or that I won't change what I do in light of new and better evidence.

I sometimes cut out the Power Clean and just rotate DL with Chins, if I don't have the opportunity to coach the PC enough with that client that I think they can actually perform it usefully. It's not me saying it's non essential, it's making an operational decision based on weighing movement pattern optimization against compliance, motivation, safety and so forth. I think where possible it's a great movement but it's just not always possible.

Steve Ross, I'll look into that, Belgium is next door. I was under the impression that one had to journey stateside to actually do the certification course, if that isn't the case please let me know.

Low bar SQ, and conventional, high hip, I just think of it as 'triangle' DL. The only time I'll coach a different squat is if someone really struggles with low bar, and won't give me the time to get them doing it right, I'll put them through a goblet to front squat progression because squatting is better than not squatting and that squat is much easier and more natural to perform without instruction, I've found. I have absolutely zero social media presence aside from the gym chain website, and so nowhere really to put photos, I don't have the facilities to scan and I only advise that clients take their own measurements and before photos for their own keeping, so no no and no. I keep meaning to, just for this kind of conversation, but honestly I go hour to hour, client to client, I have my classes and my training and the admin, and I just don't make time for it. The only metrics I track are lifts and bodyweight, I usually ask their height and obviously I can see that, but I don't use any kind of formula to determine lifts, or progression, it's all observation, so it I don't really need it.

It's all probably redundant, though. I think we're in danger of talking past each other unless we really take the time to read what the other is and is not asserting. I'm not asserting that SS, or getting strong, won't bring attendant physique changes. I'm asserting two things;

1) some people don't want those particular physique changes, and it is not and should not be my or your business to contest that value judgement.
2) there are more optimal protocols for achieving muscular hypertrophy than SS, as is, unadjusted.

Not that women who go from untrained to squatting and deadlifting heavy don't see changes in anatomy. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that there are people who can get quite strong without as drastic physique changes as others, I'm saying that people I speak to on the daily have more nuanced aesthetic goals than ripping through the seat of their pants, they care about composition, proportionality. I'm saying it's just no good to tell someone with a flat ass because her hips are shaped that way and she doesn't store fat there, that she can heavy squat her way to a butt like the one you linked to, or like mine, which I'm blessed to say is of Chase-like proportions, partly through squatting but mostly due to anatomy. I'm thinking of one female client in particular who now squats and deadlifts more than I do (one of my proudest coaching moments) but still has her self described 'pancake butt'. It's a little thicker than it was, but most of the change in size and shape came from gaining a little extra fat and most of the muscle gains were made once we moved her on from the NLP to a strength/HST mixed protocol with a specific focus on glute development from a movement and volume standpoint. That's one example, but it illustrates the main point I'm trying to make;

SS is not optimal for muscular hypertrophy. If muscular hypertrophy is one's ultimate goal, SS' role is best conceived of as its role in regards to any other sport; make you systemically strong so you can apply that strength to your sport and pursue it with more efficacy and resilience. People with physique goals are entry level bodybuilders, bodybuilding is a sport, it has its own sport specific training protocols, they vary with level of experience, they work better when you are strong but they are not measured by strength, many people are extremely hard gainers and there is enough in life that's hard without sub-optimal hypertrophy programming.

You can misread that as many times as you want, and reframe it as an assertion that SS entails no muscular hypertrophy, until your keyboard wears through to your desk, but it's still not going to be the assertion I'm making.

So, I've answered everything you asked, to a fault. Now;

Is SS the optimal training protocol for muscular hypertrophy? You can be as nuanced as you like but please answer. Maybe it actually is, at certain stages, maybe it's a necessary phase (I treat it as one). But if you want to assert that it's the beginning, middle and end of optimized muscular hypertrophy, for most people, for most goals, at all stages, I'll kindly ask you to say so plainly.

I've always noticed that my client's hips got bigger to a greater or lesser extent, working SS, sir. I've not been saying otherwise. Please pay attention to the qualifiers I use, they're there for a reason.

I don't want to sound wet, but I really need to sign this off with another thank you to both of you for your time, and to you Rip for what you've done and do, I'm a better coach because of resources you've produced than I would otherwise be, and while you might not consider me SSC material and I may indeed not be that, I really do my best, and I'll continue to do my best and to give credit to you when people ask me where I get a lot of my coaching from, and I'm always careful to specify when I'm introducing my own changes or protocols gleaned from other traditions.

I asked my girlfriend who is a 'Murican, and a radiologist, and also a researcher at one of the labs that the US Federal Govt has seconded to work on a vaccine, and she said Texas has the third highest cases in the US, of course it's under control, you're an idiot. I said go to Wichita Falls and tell him in person and he'll definitely stop talking about COVID, and he'll help you get your Deadlift up, please don't make a liar out of me.

[mitchless]

How do you adjust the press for a younger female (13yo) if there's only a 33lb lighter bar? She can't press that bar yet.

I bought a broom stick and 4 clamping collars (total weight is ~1lb), as well as the 10kg bar that Ray recommended.

That said, the broomstick is far from ideal. There are no spinning sleeves with the broomstick, and no matching collars. The collars I mentioned are affixed to the broomstick and have an ID to match it and an OD slightly smaller than the hole in olympic plates. This allows me to slip a plate between the collars, but it won't slide off. They will rattle around, and there is a small risk of them rattling over the collars.
The broomstick is also not as strong as a steel bar. Depending on what you purchase you may notice significant flex. Mine is able to (currently) accommodate 10lbs plates on either side.
Other weaknesses are a lack of knurling and rings. I supposed I could draw those on for indexes; maybe this weekend.

[Inna Koppel]

Jake,

I have to confess that when I first discovered Starting Strength I was excited by the prospect of finally getting strong the right way. If I had known how great it would make my butt look at 50 years old, I would have started sooner. Prior to becoming a Starting Strength coach I was a fitness instructor and gym owner, offering some of the best fitness to my followers. (did I mention that I ran a gym for women only?) As hard as my team and I worked, the results were always the same, our women became leaner but not happier with their bodies.

Once I was able to introduce my customers to barbell training, using the Starting Strength method, the results came faster and their focus shifted from what their bodies could do instead of what they looked like. Once that mindset shifted and they committed to the program, they saw results which they had never achieved with our classes.

Addressing body image was certainly a challenge in an all-women's gym. Many times the ladies would comment that the "tone" they saw from cardio and dumbbell workouts was due to strength increases but I pointed out that they had simply stripped their body fat, sacrificing their strength and compromising their health. No matter how much definition they saw, they were not happy with the way their skin looked or how the relentless exercise still had not achieved the results they were looking for.

You see, what they wanted could only be accomplished by growing muscle in their "trouble spots" and increasing overall strength. Nobody wants a saggy butt and getting your squat up was a simple and fast way to fix the problem, they soon learned. I came into this program at a bodyweight of 124, seemingly toned and fit. The truth was that all of the strength exercise I was doing in fitness did not make me happy with the results. It was only until I started growing muscle that I liked how my body looked.

Now, at 145lbs I'm happier with my physique, I enjoy food more, I don't overtrain and my squat doesn't suck. I'm glad that you agree strength training is a valuable tool and I'm glad that you found this forum. There are many women who could benefit from a program like SS offers, I hope you will give it a try and gift it to female trainees. Oh yeah... many of my ladies could squat over 200 and some even pulled 300, they will attest to the fact that they have never looked or felt better in their lives and that includes the women who were 55+

[Ray Gillenwater]

I very definitely did not give that information to get through the gatekeeping and into the conversation, that would be tacit approval of that mode of discourse which I do not give.

Jake, this comes off as post-modernist babble. I don't think we're going to make headway until I can get you to realize that you must have significant hands-on experience in a technical domain to have a valid opinion on the topic. Otherwise it's just conjecture.

Example: I have been into martial arts for 16 years. I'm competent in Muay Thai and have experience as an amateur fighter and a coach. I am entitled to an opinion about fight preparation and fight strategy.

I've also been training BJJ over the course of those 16 years, although I've never made it past a white belt and I've never competed. Guess how often I participate on the BJJ forms and make assertions about the rubber guard or what BJJ trainees go through? Zero. Any idea what I would do if I saw an article entitled "Danaher Jiu Jitsu for Women" that contradicted my viewpoint on Danaher Jiu Jitsu for women? I'd either say nothing, or I'd ask questions. I would not make assertions. Why? After all, I've seen his videos, I follow his fighters, I even do a half-assed version of his program via his video series. The answer is because I'm not even a high level white belt, let alone a belt that indicates that I've had enough time on the mat to have any idea what I'm talking about. I have even less experience when it comes to Danaher BJJ and women. I've taught a few women how to defend themselves with chokes and sweeps, but I am at the absolute beginner stage of my understanding, because understanding of a technical skill COMES FROM EXPERIENCE.

The title of the article is "Starting Strength for Women." To have a valid opinion on my thesis, you need to have real world experience with Starting Strength for Women. Otherwise you're sharing your understanding of the current narratives in the fitness industry, which are mostly bullshit.

Please address this before I move on to your other points. This friction point isn't Starting Strength related, this is related to being self-aware about your own competence in a domain. You need to be aware of your lack of experience and approach this conversation accordingly, if you want to be taken seriously. Otherwise, you'll need to demonstrate that you have experience without raising any major red flags, like making assertions that are demonstrably untrue.

[Tomi]

This is an interesting discussion. It seems that Jake does not have enough correct practical experience to have an opinion. I wonder if there is any amount of experience that would grant him an opinion, if the opinion would include tweaks to SS.

At the same time there is another thread about covid with almost 6000 posts. I think that everyone there has a right for an opinion, but I'm not sure about their expertise.

I hope that Jake would be "allowed" to share his thoughts about hypertrophy and SS on this forum.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Do you not see the 1761-word post that Jake was "allowed" to make? Number 21, just above? Should a plumber be "allowed" to claim an authoritative opinion on brain surgery? Where have all these stupid people come from?

[Ray Gillenwater]

I hope that Jake would be "allowed" to share his thoughts about hypertrophy and SS on this forum.

He’s allowed to share his thoughts, no one has censored him.

If he wants his thoughts about Starting Strength for women to be taken seriously, he ought to have experience with Starting Strength for women.

If you have opinions on compound bow-hunting for seniors, it’s probably a good idea to have experience with compound bow-hunting for seniors, especially if you plan on posting on a board that’s run by the guy that authored the authoritative book on compound bow-hunting.

See my point? Or do you think everyone’s opinion should have equal weight, even in the absence of expertise?

[Tomi]

Yes I see your point Ray.
1. I'm not suggesting that every opinion should have equal weight.
2. Jake was not censored.
And also:
3. This is not a hip-thrust-bodybuilding forum.
4. The topic of hypertrophy has probably been discussed countless times before.

But, you know, sometimes brain surgeons take a break, put down their knives and answer questions plumbers have regarding the minutia of brain anatomy.

[Mark Rippetoe]

But, you know, sometimes brain surgeons take a break, put down their knives and answer questions plumbers have regarding the minutia of brain anatomy.

Before you post: READ THIS

[Jake Norman]

Nobody has censored me, but I can't get an answer to my question.

I was told I had to have experience coaching at least one woman past a 225lb DL and 185lb SQ. I have, I stated that I have, though I don't think that should be a precondition for asking, which is why I didn't state it until I was under the impression we were all done and no answer would be forthcoming. Then I was told I have to share Ray's entire epistemology so that, effectively, I know my place and I ask my question in the right tone of voice. This, apparently, is a better way of dealing with me and my question than answering it. Fine, I certainly can't force Rip or Ray to answer the question if they don't want to.

If my question has been answered countless times there ought to be a well rehearsed answer to it or a link to that specific answer, not a link to a list of things to do before asking any question.

The well rehearsed answer is what you see above; "you are not qualified to ask that question". Maybe some people find that compelling, good for you and them.

Is SS the optimal training protocol for muscular hypertrophy?

Very simple question.

Note, it isn't 'does SS lead to muscular hypertrophy' or 'should people want the body type that comes with bodybuilding training or with strength training' or, actually, anything other than precisely what it is.