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Thread: Starting Strength for Women | Ray Gillenwater

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    Default Starting Strength for Women | Ray Gillenwater

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    "There is no special women’s program, just 'the program' that can be optimized to match the hormonal, anatomical, and other physiological characteristics that distinguish women from men. However, technical distinctions are not the main impediment to women achieving their genetic potential. The main barrier is societal."

    Read article

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    This is an overall fantastic article and I will be directing some of my female clients to read it, it nicely synthesizes a lot of important information around women and the barbell.

    However I have a couple of gripes and since this is the internet I'll expend most of my energy on these criticisms.

    My issues with the article are mostly from the 'Young Women' sub-headed section. I think we need to be a little bit more thoughtful and, more importantly, specific, when we're talking about aesthetics and health and strength in one breath.

    Firstly, I don't think it's right to say that popular culture does now or indeed ever has perpetuated a 'skeletal aesthetic'. At one time and perhaps today for all I know, catwalk fashion maybe has, but that's not mainstream popular culture, it's not the front cover of women's magazines and it's not what we see when we look at female celebrities in music, film and television. I can appreciate that the intention of the article might be to simply promote strength and an acceptance of the slightly higher but still healthy level of body fat that one can expect to live with as they get and maintain strength, but the effect of the wording is, in my view, to conflate what most people would call 'slim' with 'skeletal' using words like 'emaciated'. I know a lot of naturally slim women, who don't starve themselves, are very healthy, and frankly most of them are damned tired of being told by their (often dangerously overweight) female colleagues and friends 'oh you should gain some weight you're all skin and bones'. BMI is horse shit, but the way to clean up horse shit is not to shovel more horse shit on top of it. If you want to discuss dangerously low body fat, you're going to want to do so in very specific terms, not broad subjective epithets.

    Strength has real physiological benefits that we don't need to overstate, we can simply state them, and let people make up their minds about what they want. When I advocate that a prospective client get strong as a proximate goal on the way to whatever they thought they wanted when they came to me, which I almost always do and which is usually well taken, I don't lie to them about the physiological changes that will occur, I don't suggest that strength training is a physique specific or physique optimized training protocol, in the long term, because it is not. Strength training makes you strong, by definition as that is the only metric we use to gauge its success. Strength training can spit out a variety of different physique changes, clustered around some common trends but the point is that this is incidental, it is never the purpose of the protocol, at best it is a step on the road to hypertrophy specific training if gaining maximum volumes of lean muscle tissue is a person's goal. Strength training is no more bodybuilding than it is basketball, it just happens to be the case that being strong makes you better at both. But it is not a replacement for basketball coaching or for HST, if basketball performance or lean mass gains respectively are your ultimate goal.

    Slim, lean, skinny, skeletal, emaciated. These are not useful words, most people want to be lean or slim, nobody wants to be skeletal or emaciated, so we're just using these words to describe varying degrees of body fat according to personal opinion. When it comes to aesthetics, it's not your or my or anybody else's job to tell people what their preferred one should be. It's called 'aesthetics' for a reason, it's not objectively determinable. There is no such thing as a 'false' aesthetic. If somebody has a physique goal, even if I think it's sub-optimally healthy - though I've never encountered a non anorexic person with a physique goal more inherently unhealthy than say drinking 10 units of alcohol a week - I would never dare suggest they give it up if they are engaging in it while aware of the risks.

    We need to stop confusing the physique adaptions associated with strength training, with presenting strength training as a physique adaptive protocol. It is not that. If you get stronger and you're gaining weight, you're getting stronger. If you get stronger and your weight is maintained, you're getting stronger. If you get stronger as your body fat % falls....etcetera.

    This leads on to my final moan, something specific that I keep seeing crop up. The glute development benefits of heavy squatting. Stop it. It's pretty darn rich for an article to take the time to point out the uselessness of spin, running and other aerobic protocols sold as 'make you slim' training, while simultaneously perpetuating the idea that you can substantially grow your glutes with strength training. Glute anatomy is almost entirely a function of gross hip anatomy and your body's preference in where and how it stores fat. Yes, there are absolutely high responders who will get a noticeably rounder butt from squatting and other hip extension movements, but no, these movements performed using strength training protocols are by definition not optimized towards that goal in the long term. If you're not one of the lucky ones with natural hip anatomy that produces an aesthetic you like, and you don't respond really well, you're going to need to work damned hard specifically on glute hypetrophy. SQ 3 x 5 and DL 1 x 5 is just not that, any more than Pressing is practice for shooting hoops.

    I don't see anybody telling people in any other sport 'get strong with SS and don't even bother with your sports specific training'. Except in bodybuilding, especially when we're dealing with someone ignorant of the fact that they are, because of their stated goals, an amateur bodybuilder by definition which they really need to be made to understand.

    Turned into a bit of a rant, but the article contains these broader mischaracterizations and I've been wanting to address them somewhere, so here seemed fine.

    To reiterate, it's a great article overall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Norman View Post
    This leads on to my final moan, something specific that I keep seeing crop up. The glute development benefits of heavy squatting. Stop it. It's pretty darn rich for an article to take the time to point out the uselessness of spin, running and other aerobic protocols sold as 'make you slim' training, while simultaneously perpetuating the idea that you can substantially grow your glutes with strength training. Glute anatomy is almost entirely a function of gross hip anatomy and your body's preference in where and how it stores fat. Yes, there are absolutely high responders who will get a noticeably rounder butt from squatting and other hip extension movements, but no, these movements performed using strength training protocols are by definition not optimized towards that goal in the long term. If you're not one of the lucky ones with natural hip anatomy that produces an aesthetic you like, and you don't respond really well, you're going to need to work damned hard specifically on glute hypetrophy. SQ 3 x 5 and DL 1 x 5 is just not that, any more than Pressing is practice for shooting hoops.
    I'll let Ray deal with the rest of this, but this point leads me to believe you don't have a lot of experience with training women using our methods. Yes, their butts grow. Always.

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    Jake, happy to reply to your post in detail, but I first want to make sure you have practical experience with this, otherwise I’ll be dealing with your assertions based on your impression of this subject matter.

    Fill me in on how many women you’ve coached to at least a 225lb deadlift? Or at least, how many women you personally know that squat 185lb+?

    Your comments about being “naturally thin” (and a few others) lead me to believe that you don’t have enough experience to have an opinion on this topic. Please correct me if I’m wrong. For instance, I am “naturally thin,” which is why I train. I am now muscular and more useful as a result.

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    How do you adjust the press for a younger female (13yo) if there's only a 33lb lighter bar? She can't press that bar yet. Do I use dumbbells instead? Gym doesn't have tons of equipment.

    Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mpalios View Post
    How do you adjust the press for a younger female (13yo) if there's only a 33lb lighter bar?
    Depending on her size and strength, this might do the trick.

    There are lighter options out there, but none from a manufacturer that I want to promote on the board. Good to hear from you Palios!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Gillenwater View Post
    Depending on her size and strength, this might do the trick.

    There are lighter options out there, but none from a manufacturer that I want to promote on the board. Good to hear from you Palios!
    Same, Ray. Thank for the reply.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Gillenwater View Post
    Jake, happy to reply to your post in detail, but I first want to make sure you have practical experience with this, otherwise I’ll be dealing with your assertions based on your impression of this subject matter.

    Fill me in on how many women you’ve coached to at least a 225lb deadlift? Or at least, how many women you personally know that squat 185lb+?

    Your comments about being “naturally thin” (and a few others) lead me to believe that you don’t have enough experience to have an opinion on this topic. Please correct me if I’m wrong. For instance, I am “naturally thin,” which is why I train. I am now muscular and more useful as a result.
    Hi Ray, I have the suspicion from the tone of your reply that it's the opinion that is self-disqualifying, and that whatever level of experience I tell you I have, you'll either say that it's not enough to properly support having an opinion worth addressing, or if it is, you'll tell me that the experience is made up or must be in some way compromised by my having approached my work with incorrect a priori assumptions, once again due to the fact that it's turned out the 'wrong' opinion. I think your evidence for your assertions is going to be anecdotal, and you won't admit my anecdotal evidence for mine, and we both know that while we can find support in the literature on sports physiology for almost any opinion, the weight of that evidence will be on my side in regards to what I'm saying about what is optimal for hypertrophy. But I don't credit that type of evidence very highly either.

    So I'll suffice it to say that my opinion is based predominantly on experience and observation, maybe not as much as yours, certainly not as much as Rip's, but more than any other coach I work with on a daily basis as a PT and strength coach, and if that claim is not good enough for you to spend the time to address my post in detail then I understand and thank you for responding, but I won't sign on to those terms of debate as they are explicitly ad hominem and that's a fallacy for a reason. At any time down the line you can just say 'well Jake I hear you but as we've already agreed this is about experience and on this board we measure that in hours as an SS coach' and I won't really have a place to stand to object, because I'll have agreed to that framing, which I don't.

    My arguments can stand or fall on their merit, or be ignored, but I won't make the truth content of my claims hostage to the incidental, relative level of experience between myself and my interlocutor. They are either true or false because they are true or false, whether I'm talking to you, Rip, someone with no experience coaching, somebody who's never lifted, a Martian or just talking to myself. It's your prerogative of course to apply whatever framework of assessment you please to comments in order to deem them worthy of addressing, and it's mine to politely decline to play that game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Norman View Post
    Hi Ray, I have the suspicion from the tone of your reply that it's the opinion that is self-disqualifying, and that whatever level of experience I tell you I have, you'll either say that it's not enough to properly support having an opinion worth addressing
    Jake, this is straightforward. The title of my article is "Starting Strength for Women" and you either have experience coaching women with the program, or you don't. I asked a simple question: have you at least coached one woman to a 225lb deadlift?

    I'll address your questions in hopes that my replies are persuasive enough to convince you to start coaching women. On day one, don't forget to get a dexa scan, take photos, and measure the widest part of the hips. At minimum, this process will correct your misunderstandings. If we're lucky, it will demonstrate to you that posting opinions on a public forum, with little to no practical experience on the subject matter, is a mistake. I've unfortunately had to say this before on the forum: sharing strong opinions publicly without direct, practical experience on the subject matter, is one of the most destructive forces in our society right now. It's extraordinarily frustrating.

    Either way, I'll address your points:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Norman View Post

    Firstly, I don't think it's right to say that popular culture does now or indeed ever has perpetuated a 'skeletal aesthetic'... I can appreciate that the intention of the article might be to simply promote strength and an acceptance of the slightly higher but still healthy level of body fat that one can expect to live with as they get and maintain strength, but the effect of the wording is, in my view, to conflate what most people would call 'slim' with 'skeletal' using words like 'emaciated'.
    Jake, what makes up a person's shape? Their skeleton, fat mass, and muscle mass. If the person is lean and has very little muscle mass, what's the predominant factor that defines their shape? Their skeleton. Which makes them skeletal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Norman View Post
    I know a lot of naturally slim women, who don't starve themselves, are very healthy.
    How much do these women deadlift?

    If the answer is, they don't, my assertion is that they'd have improved health and fitness if they did. Do you disagree?

    Naturally slim women that lift heavy usually keep a low level of body-fat (since we pay attention to percentages, after all) but put on shape-defining muscle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Norman View Post
    I don't suggest that strength training is a physique specific or physique optimized training protocol, in the long term, because it is not. Strength training makes you strong, by definition as that is the only metric we use to gauge its success. Strength training can spit out a variety of different physique changes, clustered around some common trends but the point is that this is incidental, it is never the purpose of the protocol, at best it is a step on the road to hypertrophy specific training if gaining maximum volumes of lean muscle tissue is a person's goal.
    This is the part that screams to me that you haven't tested any of your hypotheses in the real world. When you get stronger, what happens? You build muscle mass. What does muscle mass do? Improves aesthetics.

    I met my wife thanks to Starting Strength. After a back injury, she moved to a six day per week bodybuilding program and increased her conditioning frequency. The DEXA scan showed lost weight, increased BFP, and lost muscle mass. Just an illustrative anecdote. People that have experience with this know that there is no replacement for lifting heavy weights if the goal is to increase size and strength.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Norman View Post
    Slim, lean, skinny, skeletal, emaciated. These are not useful words, most people want to be lean or slim, nobody wants to be skeletal or emaciated, so we're just using these words to describe varying degrees of body fat according to personal opinion.
    Did you click the link in the article and review the statistics on eating disorders? If you work with women regularly, the majority of them haven't spent any time trying to build muscle mass, and there is an alarming fixation on leanness and the number on the scale. It's possible that this isn't the case in Europe, but it certainly is here. Again, my point is, a weak, skeletal person (like I was), with very low bodfy-fat and very low muscle mass, is not as healthy, physically attractive (in the eyes of most people), resilient, or capable.

    Your friends that are lean may be perfectly healthy. But they'd be better off if you helped them get their deadlift to 225.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Norman View Post
    When it comes to aesthetics, it's not your or my or anybody else's job to tell people what their preferred one should be. It's called 'aesthetics' for a reason, it's not objectively determinable.
    What percentage of men find well developed glutes on a woman attractive? What percentage of women find a big chest and broad shoulders on a man attractive? This is DNA-level. Think about the potential underlying causes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Norman View Post
    We need to stop confusing the physique adaptions associated with strength training, with presenting strength training as a physique adaptive protocol. It is not that. If you get stronger and you're gaining weight, you're getting stronger. If you get stronger and your weight is maintained, you're getting stronger. If you get stronger as your body fat % falls....etcetera.
    Jake, you truly are out of your depth here. Coach women. Document the results. Report back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Norman View Post
    This leads on to my final moan, something specific that I keep seeing crop up. The glute development benefits of heavy squatting. Stop it. It's pretty darn rich for an article to take the time to point out the uselessness of spin, running and other aerobic protocols sold as 'make you slim' training, while simultaneously perpetuating the idea that you can substantially grow your glutes with strength training.
    Jake, how much do you low bar squat? This assertion leads me to believe that not only have you not coached women, but you haven't done the program yourself. Men and women that get to the intermediate levels very often have problems finding shorts that fit their giant, muscular asses, regardless of their waist size. Jesus man, did you read the article? Click on the Phoebe link and look at the size of Chase's gigantic ass. He looks like an ox. Is this genetic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Norman View Post
    If you're not one of the lucky ones with natural hip anatomy that produces an aesthetic you like, and you don't respond really well, you're going to need to work damned hard specifically on glute hypetrophy. SQ 3 x 5 and DL 1 x 5 is just not that, any more than Pressing is practice for shooting hoops.
    The only people that don't understand the profound stress and follow-on adaptation from lifting in these set/rep schemes AT HEAVY WEIGHTS are those that have never done it themselves. I assume sets of 8-12 will work better, Jake?

    The following course of action will drastically change your perspective:
    • Get your low bar squat to the mid-300s for sets across
    • Get your deadlift to the mid 400s for a set of five
    • Coach women and get their squat to 185+ and deadlift to 225+, paying close attention to their preconceptions and eating habits
    • Share what you've learned

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    Yes, their butts grow. Always.
    What happens if a woman's fat deposit is initially in the hips and butt? And if they don't lose weight (they need to eat 1)? So, I uh, know a woman.......who will start SS training soon, who's fat goes straight to the hips/butt. She wants her hips and butt to get a bit smaller. Hope this makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Gillenwater View Post
    Depending on her size and strength, this might do the trick.

    There are lighter options out there, but none from a manufacturer that I want to promote on the board. Good to hear from you Palios!
    Ray, I'm cheap. Do you think it's a good idea to buy the bar for the gym's benefit? They have nearly everything else we need, except for the lightest of barbells. They do have that 33lb one.

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