Why do Crossfitters use High-Bar Squats?

To be fair kipping pull-ups are generally a competition only move. The kipping pull-ups that people refer to when poking fun at Crossfit is most likely the "butter-fly" kip that the elites utilize in the games, or the really "tough" Crossfitter at your local box attempts. There is a "regular" kipping pull-up that is utilized in the fashion that Farmer is referencing, but they are discouraged from teaching that movement until an "athlete" can perform 10 strict hang pull-ups. The discouragement is not strong enough to overcome the commercial appeal of teaching a grossly out of shape person the kipping maneuver so that feel accomplished and can tell their buddies that they are doing pull-ups now. Partially some of the reason I distanced myself from that culture, and partially why Rip is right about their methodology. The goal should be to build a base of strength first so that each pull-up is a sub-maximal representation of an athletes' (trainee) overall strength. I'm sure Starting Strength will face some of this as it grows - individual coaches that "done-know" better.

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Originally Posted by mitchless

Does it just boil down to broad popularity? I suspect it does, and the magnitude of salaries is simply reflective of that. That puts NFL football at European soccer as top-tier; baseball, basketball, hockey, and American soccer as second tier. Crossfit is probably third tier, along with the most popular olympic sports not already identified.

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I think soccer is a bigger business globally than all the other sports combined, but as a sport it usually favors smaller guys who are fast as hell. The genetic make up seems very different than in football. CrossFit is probably among the new school things, like MMA, likely behind the Olympic sports.

If you are an actual Crossfit games athlete you are an elite athlete no matter how much money you make or if you are considered world class or not. A former coach on this board is quite stronger than almost all of us and he couldn't even crack regionals. Crossfit is a heavy olympic lifting based sport plus gymnastics skills and conditioning that has to be acquired. You simply cannot get as strong as possible and be any good at the sport because it does not work that way. That aside because olympic lifts are such an emphasised part of the sport, high bar squats are typically used by the elite competitors within the sport because other than here, most "top" olympic lifting coaches are going to say you should high bar squat for olympic lifting.

The sport of Crossfit doesn't select for athletes with extremely high explosive capacity as with most of the other popular sports. Being too explosive in Crossfit can actually hurt your performance as an elite competitor in the sport. There has been an NFL player(wide receiver)quit the NFL and try Crossfit and he was not good at it at all.

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Originally Posted by Eric Larousse

If you are an actual Crossfit games athlete you are an elite athlete no matter how much money you make or if you are considered world class or not. A former coach on this board is quite stronger than almost all of us and he couldn't even crack regionals. Crossfit is a heavy olympic lifting based sport plus gymnastics skills and conditioning that has to be acquired. You simply cannot get as strong as possible and be any good at the sport because it does not work that way.

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You've been around here since 2012, and this is what you have derived from our position? You're very slow, Eric.

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Being too explosive in Crossfit can actually hurt your performance as an elite competitor in the sport.

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Explain.

Not saying that is your position Coach or that you are wrong.

Being as explosive as an NFL wide receiver as an example means that you likely won’t be able to develop the aerobic base that the elite levels of the sport entails. James Townsend quit the NFL and tried to make the games but his genetics for aerobic capacity was so poor he didn’t do well. This is a guy that is the .001% for explosive capacity and he couldn’t do well in CrossFit.

Richard Fronnings long jump was on par with NFL linemen yet he excelled clearly in the sport.

So, it is your understanding that being "too explosive" limits the ability to develop the amazing VO2 capacity required of Elite CrossFit Athletes? What is the aerobic capacity required for Elite CrossFit performance? Is it your opinion that Mr. Townsend's only problem with Elite CrossFit performance was his 40+ SVJ, What is his SVJ? He quit the NFL at the height of his career to pursue the dream of winning the CrossFit Games? Maybe he suffers from a lack of judgement, not too big a SVJ.

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Originally Posted by Eric Larousse

Not saying that is your position Coach or that you are wrong.

Being as explosive as an NFL wide receiver as an example means that you likely won’t be able to develop the aerobic base that the elite levels of the sport entails. James Townsend quit the NFL and tried to make the games but his genetics for aerobic capacity was so poor he didn’t do well. This is a guy that is the .001% for explosive capacity and he couldn’t do well in CrossFit.

Richard Fronnings long jump was on par with NFL linemen yet he excelled clearly in the sport.

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The same James Townsend that tried transitioning when he was 29? It's only genetics? .001% for explosive capacity and couldn't do well in Crossfit? This one anecdotal example proves your point? Are there any other variables you could possibly think of besides bad aerobic capacity genetics and a propensity for explosive ability? What about the years of sub-par S&C training he received throughout his career as a football player? Too little of a sample size to draw broad conclusions, and I'd be even more skeptical if you're claiming a genetic component.

Additionally I am intrigued by your point that most "oly" coaches recommend a high bar squat. Why? The logic outlined in the blue book seems to indicate that they are wrong. As Rip told me at the beginning of this discussion - I'm sure that you've heard of that before.

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Originally Posted by James Rodgers

I would win this event easily thanks to Starting Strength's technical instructions for executing lifts and their programming despite the fact that I am a short, slightly dumpy father of two in his mid-30s endowed with the athletic ability of a potato. I also do not care that they just did a 1,000 upside down planche burpees because that is silly. They're world class athletes, they should be kicking my ass at everything no matter what.

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Originally Posted by Eric Larousse

Not saying that is your position Coach or that you are wrong.

Being as explosive as an NFL wide receiver as an example means that you likely won’t be able to develop the aerobic base that the elite levels of the sport entails. James Townsend quit the NFL and tried to make the games but his genetics for aerobic capacity was so poor he didn’t do well. This is a guy that is the .001% for explosive capacity and he couldn’t do well in CrossFit.

Richard Fronnings long jump was on par with NFL linemen yet he excelled clearly in the sport.

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Originally Posted by jcockerham

The same James Townsend that tried transitioning when he was 29? It's only genetics? .001% for explosive capacity and couldn't do well in Crossfit? This one anecdotal example proves your point? Are there any other variables you could possibly think of besides bad aerobic capacity genetics and a propensity for explosive ability? What about the years of sub-par S&C training he received throughout his career as a football player? Too little of a sample size to draw broad conclusions, and I'd be even more skeptical if you're claiming a genetic component.

Additionally I am intrigued by your point that most "oly" coaches recommend a high bar squat. Why? The logic outlined in the blue book seems to indicate that they are wrong. As Rip told me at the beginning of this discussion - I'm sure that you've heard of that before.

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(This convo will get interesting)

How do you guys come to terms with Froning's (very sad) 60-65 second 400m time, which is comparable to a slightly above average 8th grade girl on a JHS T&F team?
I mean, the 8th grade girl (cis female BTW), gets to use the same sort of narrative James Rodgers does above, right?

Froning only has a ~33" SVJ, which is neither super duper good, but well above average (comparable to some NFL running backs),
so we can't blame Larousse's 'Townsend effect' there really?

You would think a lifetime of CrossFitTM workouts and competing in the named WODs, one would do well with what is a mostly glycolytic affair like a 400m. And we can't blame "lack of skill" for a relatively poor 400m time. Its not like handstand walk event, or even like a 40 yard dash (sprinting form & optimal mechanics).... its just running really fast (90% for a lap).

Think hard.

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Originally Posted by Farmer

(This convo will get interesting)

How do you guys come to terms with Froning's (very sad) 60-65 second 400m time, which is comparable to a slightly above average 8th grade girl on a JHS T&F team?
I mean, the 8th grade girl (cis female BTW), gets to use the same sort of narrative James Rodgers does above, right?

Froning only has a ~33" SVJ, which is neither super duper good, but well above average (comparable to some NFL running backs),
so we can't blame Larousse's 'Townsend effect' there really?

You would think a lifetime of CrossFitTM workouts and competing in the named WODs, one would do well with what is a mostly glycolytic affair like a 400m. And we can't blame "lack of skill" for a relatively poor 400m time. Its not like handstand walk event, or even like a 40 yard dash (sprinting form & optimal mechanics).... its just running really fast (90% for a lap).

Think hard.

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Just a small consideration - I've only seen one reference to Rich Froning's 400m time, and that was from his endurance coach Chris Henshaw who stated that his 400m time was 60 seconds prior to training with him. In a subsequent interview Chris Henshaw stated that Froning knocked 19 seconds off his mile time. I think it's safe to say he improved his 400m time in the process. I can shave 3-5 seconds off your 400m time this very instant by teaching you how to run smarter. Grab a good pair of running shoes and meet me at a track of your choosing. This conversation has too many variables and too much nuance to say that the limited knowledge we have is worthy of objective truth. We are merely speculating in ignorance with keyboards which proves nothing else than that we are probably all fools.

The fact of the matter is - we are not all the same. Anecdotal considerations in light of that fact require us to realize drawing broad conclusions based on limited data is intellectually lazy and unwarranted.