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Thread: Why do Crossfitters use High-Bar Squats?

  1. #21
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    If I have any question for crossfit, it would be why do they do those silly ass kipping pull ups? Who or what made them decide to use them vs conventional pulls or chins?

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    You seem very confused about several things.
    For sure I am confused about a lot of things. If there is any doubt about that, I'm sure my wife would be glad to confirm.

    I'm also new here so I'm trying to be careful and my rhetorical style might have gotten me in trouble. In every sport, there is an *acquisition* of strength and a *display* of strength. I feel ridiculous linking to your own article (Strength and its Derivatives | Mark Rippetoe) but at least you know that I've read and internalized it.

    If somebody acquires strength by doing SS:BBT, practices the sport of ice skating, and then displays strength by winning an international ice skating competition, I'd call that person a world-class athlete.

    If somebody acquires strength by doing SS:BBT, practices the sport of swimming, and then displays strength by setting a 400m freestyle swimming record, I would think they are also a world-class athlete.

    If somebody acquires strength by doing SS:BBT, practices doing box jumps really fast, and then displays strength by setting a world record for the most box jumps done in an hour, fastest handstand walk, or whatever the heck they do at crossfit competitions, that would seem to fall into the same bucket as a display of acquired strength

    What I'm (clearly) failing to see is why acquiring strength using SS, practicing some Crossfit skill, and then displaying strength by doing that skill is somehow different.

    In the first two cases, there athleticism isn't questioned because they are choosing a sport other than football. But in the last case, the athleticism is called into question.

    If somebody thinks they are *acquiring* strength by doing group crossfit classes, they will be terribly disappointed. Nobody here needs me to say that squats and deadlifts for sets of five across would be much better preparation.

    If we're just hating on crossfit and I ruined the party, please accept my apologies. I didn't comment on this thread to stir the pot.

    I have friends and neighbors who *like* to do crossfit competitions and I'd like to encourage them to acquire their strength by doing the barbell training for which you advocate because I think they would get better results.

    I'm in the same boat as the OP. If somebody wanted to train for a crossfit competition, I'd have them do the program exactly as in the book (and also some HIIT conditioning like Jonathan Sullivan describes in Barbell Prescription0

    And I would take great joy if somebody went out and won a crossfit competition and got asked how they trained and they said "Starting Strength" But I also don't want to tell somebody that it's the right program for them if it really isn't. I don't see any list of contra-indications of SS for any type of athlete and I can't think of any basis in biology or physics that it *wouldn't* be the right program.

    I really hope this post isn't taken in a negative way because that's not what I'm going for.

    If hating crossfit is a requirement to be an SS coach, I'll ask to come to the next seminar. But I'd still help somebody who is interested in crossfit competitions because they would get way more out of it than suffering through ineffective group classes.

  3. #23
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    To be fair I am not sure there is a causal link between strength and athletic performance so the NFL analogy need not be a great one. Correlation and causality are two totally separate entities. For example it is necessary but not sufficient for there to be a pre-requisite amount of strength for athletic performance. There are over 40 men on this forum who could probably squat, press, and deadlift more than NFL players (with proper form). That doesnít mean they could lace up a pair of cleats and take the field.

    However it doesnít seem like there is much cross (ironically) over between CrossFit and other athletic endeavors. It is truly itís own sport whereas SS principles seem to cross over to just about any pursuit.

  4. #24
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    Ed, we're not hating on CF. I'm just saying that CF doesn't pay what professional sports pays, so the best athletes go where the money is. CF is not a world-class sport; if it was, people would pay to watch it, and there would be more money. Here's your post:

    Quote Originally Posted by EdTice View Post
    If female ice skaters are world class athletes. why are they not playing in the NFL?
    What?

    From what I understand, ice skaters actually do a fair amount of strength training. It would seem that you need pretty strong legs to hit a triple jump. And hockey players for sure.
    From what you understand? It would seem? Hockey players, for sure? This is confusion.

    Aren't there also crossfit competitors who are very strong? Not those who go to the average neighborhood box and do long rows with no concern about form followed by air squats. But aren't some of the higher-level competitors on real strength programs like SS?
    There are a couple of ways to get very strong. 1. Being born strong. You've heard of that. 2. Steroids. You've also heard of that. And more than strength is required of elite athletics, like the NFL and figure skating. Talent and practice are responsible for these.

    Crossfit is a sport like anything else so why wouldn't it require the display of strength... strength acquired via barbell exercises?
    It does require strength. Doesn't matter where it comes from. Our contention is that proper barbell training can make anyone stronger, regardless of talent and natural ability. CF is not proper barbell training, and it's not a world-class sport. Doesn't have to be a world-class sport to serve its purpose. That's all we're saying here.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    Ed, we're not hating on CF. I'm just saying that CF doesn't pay what professional sports pays, so the best athletes go where the money is. CF is not a world-class sport; if it was, people would pay to watch it, and there would be more money.
    This is tangential but interesting (to me, and hopefully others): what qualifies a sport as a world-class sport? I think it is clearly more than people paying to watch it. People are apparently willing to pay more than $200 a person to attend the Games as spectators. It also attracts competitors from all over the world. At the same time, it is certainly not at the same tier as American football or European soccer (the other Football).

    Does it just boil down to broad popularity? I suspect it does, and the magnitude of salaries is simply reflective of that. That puts NFL football at European soccer as top-tier; baseball, basketball, hockey, and American soccer as second tier. Crossfit is probably third tier, along with the most popular olympic sports not already identified.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchless View Post
    This is tangential but interesting (to me, and hopefully others): what qualifies a sport as a world-class sport? I think it is clearly more than people paying to watch it. People are apparently willing to pay more than $200 a person to attend the Games as spectators. It also attracts competitors from all over the world. At the same time, it is certainly not at the same tier as American football or European soccer (the other Football).
    Professional sports is simply entertainment. Society places a large value on being entertained, whether that is sitting and watching sports, movies, golf (is golf a sport?) or anything that allows them to idly waste time, preferably sitting.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Cox View Post
    If I have any question for crossfit, it would be why do they do those silly ass kipping pull ups? Who or what made them decide to use them vs conventional pulls or chins?
    CrossFit is about socializing and dating. The kipping pull-up is nothing more than a courtship display put on by the betas.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Schexnayder View Post
    CrossFit is about socializing and dating. The kipping pull-up is nothing more than a courtship display put on by the betas.
    In all my years of Crossfitting, my kipping form was never good enough to get me laid. Or maybe it was - but I was lacking in other areas.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Cox View Post
    If I have any question for crossfit, it would be why do they do those silly ass kipping pull ups? Who or what made them decide to use them vs conventional pulls or chins?
    It's the push press of pull-ups.

  10. #30
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    starting strength coach development program
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Cox View Post
    If I have any question for crossfit, it would be why do they do those silly ass kipping pull ups? Who or what made them decide to use them vs conventional pulls or chins?
    (I think) two reasons:

    It something that is easily "scale-able" to the masses (normally weak, and untrained people) you can do with a lot of reps with.
    Most of america can only do a few pullups, if any at all.

    It is very loosely related to gymnastics.....really twisted and butchered though.
    Gymnastics Skills and Drills - The Glide Kip on Bars - Coach Steve Nunno - YouTube

    Crossfit has a lot of Olympic Weightlifting and Gymnastic "themed" stuff.

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